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In-flight opening of front hinged canopy
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careywf(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Hi everyone. While browsing the NTSB website today, I saw an accident report (see below) that might be of interest to all aircraft owners that have front hinged canopies on the airplanes. This matter was discussed on this site a few months ago and and there were several suggestion for devices that would either lock the canopy down, or prevent it from opening in flight more than a few inches. It appears that the shape of the canopy is acting as a lifting devise (like the wing), causing it to lift into the windstream, resulting in unacceptable drag and subsequent control problems. A simple locking devide or restraining cable will alleviate this potential problem. Walt in Dayton.            NTSB Identification: WPR09LA075

14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation

Accident occurred Tuesday, January 06, 2009 in Casa Grande, AZ

Aircraft: Czech Aircraft Works Sport Cruiser, registration: N797BS

Injuries: 1 Uninjured.  This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On January 6, 2009, at 1600 mountain standard time, a Czech Aircraft Works Sport Cruiser, N797BS, made an emergency off field landing after the cockpit canopy popped opened in flight at Casa Grande Municipal Airport, Casa Grande, Arizona. The sport pilot operated the airplane under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations, Part 91. The pilot was not injured, and the airplane was substantially damaged. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed. The flight originated at Casa Grande about 1600.



The pilot reported to the Safety Board investigator that the canopy popped open shortly after takeoff, around 500 feet agl. The canopy is hinged in front of the cockpit and rotates upward when open. The pilot said he tried to keep  the canopy closed with his free hand but the canopy continued to rise higher and higher. The pilot turned back to the airport and made an off field landing next to the airport wind sock.  

 End of report.



 [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Walter,

 

 I had the same thing happen in an AMD 601XLi, except that we were at cruise speed, about 1500' AGL.  The nose went down 60 deg.  I was able to break the dive, but could never get the nose up to level.  We hit the ground about 10 deg nose down.  When I was able to work again on my XL, the first thing I did was to install a canopy safety tether.  Drawing attached. 

 

  The accident airplane had the new 650 style canopy latch.  My airplane has the old style latches.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

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jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 09:15:18PM -0500, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   When I was able to work again on my XL,


	


How are you doing these days, anyway?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Jay,

 

 I am walking nearly normally, but the foot and ankle are still a little swollen and painful at times.  The ribs only bother me at night.  My eye damage is still troublesome and might not return to normal.  I'd say that I'm about 95% and doing about whatever I want to do.

 

 Thanks for asking - Jay B.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Sabrina,

 

 I thoroughly resent the implication that I crashed because of a lack of skill when the canopy of the airplane I was flying came open.  The other pilot in the airplane was a CFII.  Surely he didn't lack adequate skill.  I firmly believe that our combined skill is the very reason that we are both alive today. You were not in that cockpit and have absolutely no basis for your crass comment and, again, I thoroughly resent it.

 

 You are definitely now on my sh..it list ! !

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

As far as I know, every successful landing made after this type of  

canopy came open in flight was accomplished by using a high power  

setting all the way to the touchdown. It seems that pulling the power  

to idle and leaving it there is not a successful strategy for  

recovering from this situation. You need the prop wash over the tail  

in order to get enough elevator authority to get the nose up.



This is more a matter of knowing how to recover from the situation  

before it happens (or having enough time to figure it out when it  

does) than it is a matter of skill.



On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:48 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I thoroughly resent the implication that I crashed because of a lack  

 of skill when the canopy of the airplane I was flying came open.   

 The other pilot in the airplane was a CFII.  Surely he didn't lack  

 adequate skill.  I firmly believe that our combined skill is the  

 very reason that we are both alive today. You were not in that  

 cockpit and have absolutely no basis for your crass comment and,  

 again, I thoroughly resent it.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Bryan,

 

 Monday morning quarterbacking is great!  At about pattern altitude, canopy pops fully open, nose goes down 60+ degrees,  100 mph & increasing, headset ripped off your head, cruise power,.  What would you do?

 

 I think I've had about enough of this forum.

 

 Jay in Dallas

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 08:40:38PM -0500, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Monday morning quarterbacking is great!? At about pattern altitude, canopy

 pops fully open, nose goes down 60+ degrees, 100 mph & increasing, headset

 ripped off your head, cruise power,.? What would you do?


	


*sigh*



People, we need to remember, when disucssing these things, that people we

know and consider friends have been right in the middle of the kinds of

failures we're discussing, and refrain from casting aspersions on the

abilities of folks who have been there and done that.



We can and should learn from others' experiences...but we should not say

we'd have done things differently in the heat of the moment - because

there's just no way to know. Sometimes, what the book says we should do and

what we think we will do as we're sitting in front of the computer don't

correspond to what we actually wind up doing when the canopy comes open.



As for me, I make certain to double check the security of the (in my case,

new-style) canopy latch on both sides before taxi, and again before takeoff,

as a result of Jay's accident. I've also given careful consideration to how

I'll handle that occurrence. Even so, I'm not going to sit here and say that

he screwed up. I suggest none of us are the position to do so.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

I don't know what I would have done in that situation, I wasn't there.  

The proper thing to do in that situation is to apply full throttle and  

pull back hard on the stick, but if you don't know that ahead of time  

you probably won't have time to figure it out on your own. Would I  

have had the presence of mind to think of that at the time? I don't  

know.



All you can do is think about what can go wrong ahead of time and  

think of what you should do in that situation and then hope to hell  

you can remember it all and have time to react when the shit hits the  

fan. There are some situations that require a certain amount of time  

and/or altitude to recover from. If you don't have one or the other,  

the best pilot in the world can't save the day.



On Jan 10, 2009, at 8:40 PM, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Bryan,



 Monday morning quarterbacking is great!  At about pattern altitude,  

 canopy pops fully open, nose goes down 60+ degrees, 100 mph &  

 increasing, headset ripped off your head, cruise power,.  What would  

 you do?



 I think I've had about enough of this forum.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

careywf(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Jay,

  

    Other than the 60 degree nose down after the canopy opened in flight, did the aircraft experience any other unusual flight characteristics, ie: vibrations, shudder, excess g-forces, etc? Just wondering. Walt in Dayton.



--- On Fri, 1/9/09, jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com> wrote:



 [quote]From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>

Subject: Re: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 9:15 PM



  Walter,



I had the same thing happen in an AMD 601XLi, except that we were at cruise speed, about 1500' AGL.  The nose went down 60 deg.  I was able to break the dive, but could never get the nose up to level.  We hit the ground about 10 deg nose down.  When I was able to work again on my XL, the first thing I did was to install a canopy safety tether.  Drawing attached. 



 The accident airplane had the new 650 style canopy latch.  My airplane has the old style latches.



Jay in Dallas



 



 



--

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

...you had better be pretty sure that it will clear the horizontal and vertical stabs once jetisoned...



David L. Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA, USA



  

--- On Sat, 1/10/09, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

[quote]From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

Subject: Re: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 8:37 PM



[quote]--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"

<chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Paul, all...



What do you think about an XL canopy that can be ejected?  



Is it needed?  



The mod costs less than $40  (two MS17985-414 quick release pins and one         [quote][b]

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

On Saturday 10 January 2009 19:40, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Bryan,



 Monday morning quarterbacking is great!? At about pattern altitude, canopy

 pops fully open, nose goes down 60+ degrees,  100 mph & increasing, headset

 ripped off your head, cruise power,.? What would you do?


	


Jay, I sympathize. Having totaled an aircraft in the 1970s, I can look back 

and see what I could have done differently. Whether any other options were 

open to you guys, you would know better than I. 



At the time, though, I did the best I could. I'm sure you guys did the same.



-- 

==============================================

Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

=================================================

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Do you have any information about where the canopy will go when released?  Does it hit the rudder, ect?  Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE

  

  In a message dated 1/10/2009 8:38:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  chicago2paris(at)msn.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina"    <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Paul, all...



What do you think    about an XL canopy that can be ejected?  



Is it needed?     



The mod costs less than $40  (two MS17985-414 quick release pins    and one foot of 4130 square tubing)  but the pair of goggles needed, just    in case, cost about $30 each for a total of $100 and 14 ounces of added    weight, total.





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223955#223955

	




New year...new news.  Be the first to know what is making headlines.

  [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

I'm not sure this would work. what effect do you think the turtle deck  opening might have as far as drag or would you just cover up the opening? I  would be to afraid it would smack the rudder and then you might be even worse  off. I think a better solution would be a ejection seat then you would go  straight thru the canopy.

  

 BTW that last part was a joke

  

  

  Jeff  Garrett

Louisville Ky.

601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair  90%

601XL  N524B Aerolite Corvair  155 Hrs

601XL N2257  Aerolite  Corvair  85 Hrs think it's right this time

www.aeroliteproducts.com

www.project601xl.com

www.aerolite.camstreams.com



Do  not archive



  

  

  

 Paul, all...



What do you think about an XL canopy that can be  ejected?  



Is it needed?  



The mod costs less than  $40  (two MS17985-414 quick release pins and one foot of 4130 square  tubing)  but the pair of goggles needed, just in case, cost about $30 each  for a total of $100 and 14 ounces of added weight, total.

 

  

  



A Good Credit Score is 1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: Re: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

I really hate to agree with Jeff but I'd say if the canopy was ejected I'd have to think the odds are pretty high that it would hit the tail and do God only knows what.



That said I too have thought about an ejectable canopy but it would only be used if I Had a chute and was ejecting the canopy to bail out.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

 	  Sabrina wrote: 	
		  Sky Catcher BRS failure 	


Any details on how it failed?  Did it not deploy?  Or get snagged on something?



Thanks,



- Pat

fderfler(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:55 am Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Sabrina - 



 

Thanks for your observation that the factory demo has flex hinges.  That is important to note.  

 



Regarding your "easily removable" canopy, I'm surprised no one has injected the idea of its value in a water landing.  Since I fly over water 90% of the time it entered my head.  At one time my personal POH included popping the latch before attempting an emergency water landing.   But, I later re-wrote that when I discussed the noise, the change of attitude, and the distraction with a guy who regularly opened the 601 canopy as a simulated emergency condition.  (THAT part of my personal POH says, "As Slow As You Can Go")   So now my emergency water landing procedure says get the canopy open first thing.  But, depending on the attitude, that could be challenging.  

 



 I submit that being able to jettison the canopy quickly after an emergency landing could be a good thing.  On the other hand, the whole canopy ejection and bailing out with a seatpack chute on strikes me as ummm... less valuable.  (Yes, I know the Skycatcher guy did it and I do not know how!)  

 



Sabrina, thanks for your great ideas.  Quantum physics, eh?  Be prepared for lots of Heisenberg jokes.  

 



Frank Derfler 

AMD-made 601XL with 160 hours 

Marathon in the Florida Keys 

-- 

Twitter! Follow me at http://Twitter.com/Fderfler

 

See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. 



See my discussion of  All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com  

 

Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com

  [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

Hello Frank,

  

 That is a good point,  I personally avoid flying over the lake(s) or over the sea farther from gliding distance of the shore, or over towns or cities. 

  

 When emergency landing on water there is a big chance to end with the airplane wheels up (mainly landing gear drag on the water or other causes),,,  in this case opening the canopy will be almost impossible.   How to push the area of the cabin against the resistance of the water?.

  

 Where do you fly? Why so much  time over water? 

  

 in normal flying person with no ocean or gulf crossing,  the chances of flying over water (outside gliding distance), and that the engine will fail in that precise time, are very low statitically,  This to justify to have a cabin eject mechanism that can accidentally be pulled by a passenger.  We all give Young Eagles flights, and kids are kids...

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 Flying from Chapala Lake, Mexico. (over the dry side 

 "What is not installed, will not fail"



--- On Tue, 1/13/09, Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Frank Derfler <fderfler(at)gmail.com>

Subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 7:54 AM



  Sabrina - 

 



 Thanks for your observation that the factory demo has flex hinges.  That is important to note.  

 



 Regarding your "easily removable" canopy, I'm surprised no one has injected the idea of its value in a water landing.  Since I fly over water 90% of the time it entered my head.  At one time my personal POH included popping the latch before attempting an emergency water landing.   But, I later re-wrote that when I discussed the noise, the change of attitude, and the distraction with a guy who regularly opened the 601 canopy as a simulated emergency condition.  (THAT part of my personal POH says, "As Slow As You Can Go")   So now my emergency water landing procedure says get the canopy open first thing.  But, depending on the attitude, that could be challenging.  

 



  I submit that being able to jettison the canopy quickly after an emergency landing could be a good thing.  On the other hand, the whole canopy ejection and bailing out with a seatpack chute on strikes me as ummm... less valuable.  (Yes, I know the Skycatcher guy did it and I do not know how!)  

 



 Sabrina, thanks for your great ideas.  Quantum physics, eh?  Be prepared for lots of Heisenberg jokes.  

 



 Frank Derfler 

 AMD-made 601XL with 160 hours 

 Marathon in the Florida Keys 

 



-- 

Twitter! Follow me at http://Twitter.com/Fderfler



See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. 



See my discussion of  All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com  



Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


         [quote][b]

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

On Tuesday 13 January 2009 06:54, Frank Derfler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sabrina -


	


<snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		   Sabrina, thanks for your great ideas.  Quantum physics, eh?  Be prepared

 for lots of Heisenberg jokes.


	


Being a man of principle, I am uncertain about this. 



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

sdthatcher

Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Port Saint Lucie

Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: Re: In-flight opening of front hinged canopy

What ever happened to " a man and his dog walk into a bar..."?   Sorry, my principles required me to respond. Oh, and since Sabrina is taking Quantum Physics and will need to be up on her Transforms, I submit the following: What is the transform of the integral from zero to infinity of 1 over the square root of the variable (cabin)?  The answer below in reverse letters...



Do Not Archive (in case I remember Laplace incorrectly and it is actually a Fourier)



nibac gol  Now, that's a joke! 



 	  z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: 	
		  On Tuesday 13 January 2009 06:54, Frank Derfler wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sabrina -



	


<snip>



 	  Quote: 	
		   Sabrina, thanks for your great ideas.  Quantum physics, eh?  Be prepared

 for lots of Heisenberg jokes.



	


Being a man of principle, I am uncertain about this. 



-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

_________________
Scott Thatcher, Port Saint Lucie, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 140 hours and not flying currently.

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