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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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There wasn't much new stuff at Sebring last week but there was a engine on display that looks promising, a Gemini 100. They claim that a production engine will be sold as an option on a factory built LSA by March of this year. The engine is priced to be completive with a Rotax 912ULS and weighs about 18 pounds more. Rated at 100 HP at 4000 RPM for the engine with 2500 Prop RPM. Its kind of a radical engine with two crank shafts, water cooled, two stroke, 6 pistons in three cylinders, burning diesel or Jet A. They are talking about a initial 2000 Hr. TBO then going to 3000 Hrs. I don't see a web site for them. Attached is a scan of their flyer.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: New Engine at Sebring |
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I have read about that engine, it seems way over complicated  That crazy setup is based on a German design around WWII, if it were a good design, I think someone somewhere would have used it in the last 50 years....
And like I am going to pay 20 grand for a 2 stroke engine  this will probably just be another one of these development engines that quickly fades into non-production.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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Mike
You could be right about not being produced but?
As for this being a 2 stroke. It is a long way from what you are thinking
about. Like Detroit Diesel's engine it is a 2 stroke but has a oil system
like the 4 strokes. You don't mix oil with the fuel.
Yes I'm hoping Rotax will have some competition.
Rick Neilsen
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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Richard, Remember the Zoche, the Delta Hawk............From the specs you posted this thing is going to be a fuel hog, too. A BSFC of .40 at 75% power if awfully high for a diesel, it ought to be down around of .27 to .3. especially since the fuel cost is going to be at least 25% higher.
Rick
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>
Mike
You could be right about not being produced but?
As for this being a 2 stroke. It is a long way from what you are thinking about. Like Detroit Diesel's engine it is a 2 stroke but has a oil system like the 4 strokes. You don't mix oil with the fuel.
Yes I'm hoping Rotax will have some competition.
Rick Neilsen
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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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I am with you on this Rick Rotax needs some serious competition I don't care where it comes from but anything to get there prices down to what they are really worth.
Ellery
do not archive
In a message dated 1/28/2009 6:17:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net writes:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>
Mike
You could be right about not being produced but?
As for this being a 2 stroke. It is a long way from what you are thinking
about. Like Detroit Diesel's engine it is a 2 stroke but has a oil system
like the 4 strokes. You don't mix oil with the fuel.
Yes I'm hoping Rotax will have some competition.
Rick Neilsen
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David Lucas
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Re: New Engine at Sebring |
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quote]I have read about that engine, it seems way over complicated That crazy setup is based on a German design around WWII, if it were a good design, I think someone somewhere would have used it in the last 50 years.... [/quote]
Got to keep an open mind Mike, an 'Old' idea re-visited with 'New' technology applied is smart thinking. I don't think any investor would put his money into such a project if it didn't have a promising future.
There's quite a good write up from some engineering professionals here;
http://www.amtonline.com/print/Aircraft-Maintenance-Technology/Gemini-100/1$4434
Pro's and Con's to it of course but it seems they're quite open to see how it develops.
David.
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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David, Yeah they'll be quite willing to see how it develops.....on your nickle. Remember all these claims Joe Escobar is talking about are based upon NO installed base. By their own figures It's heavier than a 912, will cost the same, and burn the same amount of fuel that is priced 20% higher. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Rick
On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 9:38 AM, David Lucas <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com (d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "David Lucas" <d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com (d_a_lucas(at)hotmail.com)>
quote]I have read about that engine, it seems way over complicated That crazy setup is based on a German design around WWII, if it were a good design, I think someone somewhere would have used it in the last 50 years.... |
Got to keep an open mind Mike, an 'Old' idea re-visited with 'New' technology applied is smart thinking. I don't think any investor would put his money into such a project if it didn't have a promising future.
There's quite a good write up from some engineering professionals here;
http://www.amtonline.com/print/Aircraft-Maintenance-Technology/Gemini-100/1$4434
Pro's and Con's to it of course but it seems they're quite open to see how it develops.
David.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=227499#227499
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R. Hankins
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: New Engine at Sebring |
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"By their own figures It's heavier than a 912, will cost the same, and burn the same amount of fuel that is priced 20% higher. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "
They may be looking at a larger market than just the USA. There are many places in the world where Jet-A is easier to find than 110LL. With the EPA tightening its grip every year, it is only a matter of time before it goes away here. As for the 20% more expensive, I suppose that is true compared to Mogas, but doesn't hold vs 110LL (at least according to air-nav:)
http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html
This engine stacks up pretty well (on paper) against the Cont. O-200 etc. It also has a better power to weight ratio than the 80hp 912UL. With directly opposed pistons and symmetrical crankshafts, this should be a low vibration engine as well. Nearly all of us run gear reduction already, so I don't see having to gear both cranks to the output shaft as an over complication. Piston porting eliminates the whole valve train, so in some ways it is simpler. The super charger does add some complexity.
If they can field this engine anywhere close to their weight and power specs, it will be a fine engineering achievement regardless of what the market does with it. Think of it, a diesel that weighs less than most air cooled gas aviation engines. Pretty cool.
If I had the money to spend, I wouldn't shell out for this one just yet, but I do wish them the best of luck and am looking forward to the flight reports.
Hoping for a sunny weekend - or just a weekend above minimums....
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: New Engine at Sebring |
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It has been a bit slow on the list lately. It was also very interesting to
hear everyone's comments on this new engine. I really hope it makes it to
the market
At the time I posted the information on this engine I hadn't done much
research. I still don't know as much about the subject as I would like but
thanks to Dave's link and some web browsing I have learned a bit.
This engine is based on a very successful German engine that flew in a
number of airplanes. It was also licensed and built in England and another
country. Why it didn't catch on is likely a matter of real cheap fuel and a
aviation community that is afraid to change. Remember Lycoming and
Continental are still producing engines that really haven't changed since
the 1940s. If you fix something you can be sued because you have just proven
for the lawyers that there was a problem.
Specific fuel consumption is a term that is real hard to get a handle on.
The biggest problem is determining how that relates to fuel consumption at
cruise. The tables I see on the internet show a .4 SFC as a common fuel burn
for diesel engines and .5 for gasoline engines. In flight in a Kolb it it is
only speculation what the gal/hr would be but at a given power level but it
would be less. The neat thing about a diesel engine is that they will burn
the same SFC at almost all power settings. In other words a 100 HP Rotax
engine has super power when you need it but you pay for it in increased fuel
consumption in cruise. A diesel engine like the Gemini 100 would give you
the same power when you want it but get better fuel consumption than say a
80 HP Rotax when you pull the power back to cruise. It is also likely you
could pull power to a economy cruise and get close to 2 gallons per hour at
say 55-65 mph in a MKIII.
Again I'm dreaming. If this engine works out consider the possibilities. A
TBO of 2000-3000+ hours (your fuel is a lubricant). Lower fuel weight or
longer range with the same fuel. If you get low on fuel you can power back
and significantly extend your range. No spark plugs, no valves, no carb
icing, smooth running, greatly reduced fire danger in flight and in a crash.
Same price and only 18 lbs. more weight than 912ULS.
If you think the price is too high consider a VW.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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