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Exhaust Lagging

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Troy Maynor

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 162

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Hey All,

 Is it ok to lag, or wrap some kind of heat shield  around part or all of the exhaust pipes? Mine is a classic FWF with stainless  steel pipes. I wanted to keep a few areas cooler, like near the carbs, and  a few other places. I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away  undetected under insulation. What do I need to ask for specifically, maybe out  of ACS or Summit racing. What have others done 

 Troy  Maynor

   [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:18 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Hi! Troy  

IMHO best not do lagging it will cause differential expansion and so induce fatigue somewhere.  

Regards  

Bob Harrison G-PTAG  

   

--

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Troy Maynor a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away undetected under 

 insulation.


	


Troy and all,



Dyn'Aero tried lagging stainless steel exhaust pipes at the beginning of 

the MCR series, but they quit doing it due to some corrosion problems.

What we have done is install light *radiation* shields a few millimeters 

from the pipes where needed to prevent carbs or fuel lines from 'seeing' 

the red hot exhausts or turbo. The free space between the exhaust and 

'targets' allows free air passage. I did the same between the 4 into 1 

and the cowling.

The temperature reduction is drastic.

Regards,

-- 

Gilles Thesee

Grenoble, France

http://contrails.free.fr

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Hi Gilles"Dyn'Aero tried lagging stainless steel exhaust pipes at the beginning of the MCR series, but they quit doing it due to some corrosion problems."Was it the 914 exhaust they tried lagging?Approx. what year engine was the test performed on, if it was a 914?Rotax changed the design of the 914 exhaust over to one that is more robust and made of 309 Stainless Steel.  Lockwood aviation says that most all 914s in Certified aircraft are lagged without problems and they are an advocate to lagging. Older style 914 exhausts, like those on a Xamango are lagged and need to be inspected every 25 or 50 hours, I forget. Not a super trivial job since exhaust needs to come off to do so. Supposedly if exhaust header breaks fully, the motor will quit according to my friend who owns Xamango who has read of several incidents with other Xamangos. According to Lockwood, new style 309SS are robust and tolerates lagging well.I plan to lag my 914 exhaust.Troy, I can't speak from experience but the Factory does not recommend lagging 912 or 912S exhausts. I never saw a Classic exhaust system up close, but if it's close to an XS exhaust I wouldn't lag it. I am not too thrilled with the 912s exhausts I have looked at. I would keep a sharp eye on 912S exhaust, and do it often. Lagging besides instigating differential expansion/ hence additional stresses will not allow easy inspection.Ron Parigoris   [quote][b]

acrojim7534(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Hi Troy

  

 Early on, we installed an intercooler on our 914. The hose from the turbo, to the intercooler ran very close to the exhaust pipe. I wrapped an area about 3 inches wide on the exhaust pipe with asbestos tape from Summit Racing. We also wraped an area on the other side of the engine where the exhaust pipe was very close to an oil line. This is a stainless steel exhaust system. In the past 800 hours we have replaced the asbestos wraps two or three times. There has been no change to the short sections of the exhaust pipe under the wraps.

  

 I have seen regular steel header pipes that were wrapped fully in asbestos tape that were destroyed in about a year or so.

  

 Jim Brown



--- On Sun, 2/15/09, Troy Maynor <wingnut54(at)charter.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Troy Maynor <wingnut54(at)charter.net>

Subject: Exhaust Lagging

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:57 AM



    Hey All,

 Is it ok to lag, or wrap some kind of heat shield around part or all of the exhaust pipes? Mine is a classic FWF with stainless steel pipes. I wanted to keep a few areas cooler, like near the carbs, and a few other places. I have read that regular steel pipes can rust away undetected under insulation. What do I need to ask for specifically, maybe out of ACS or Summit racing. What have others done 

 Troy  Maynor

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


	


          [quote][b]

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   Was it the 914 exhaust they tried lagging?


	


Among others, yes.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Approx. what year engine was the test performed on, if it was a 914?


	


Beats me.

I believe that was in the pre-2000 era.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Rotax changed the design of the 914 exhaust over to one that is more 

 robust and made of 309 Stainless Steel.  Lockwood aviation says that 

 most all 914s in Certified aircraft are lagged without problems and 

 they are an advocate to lagging. Older style 914 exhausts, like those 

 on a Xamango are lagged and need to be inspected every 25 or 50 hours, 

 I forget. Not a super trivial job since exhaust needs to come off to 

 do so. Supposedly if exhaust header breaks fully, the motor will quit 

 according to my friend who owns Xamango who has read of several 

 incidents with other Xamangos. 



 According to Lockwood, new style 309SS are robust and tolerates 

 lagging well.



 I plan to lag my 914 exhaust.

I don't know what Ximango exhausts look like.
	


During our build I payed great attention to what is going on under the 

cowling, esp. concerning heat.

In my opinion - but I know Europa-philes are wary of non-Europa opinions 

 - lagging is not the best response to radiated heat from exhausts, 

just like ceramic coating, etc..

Within a few minutes, the lagging material is just about the same temp 

as the exhaust, and radiate about just as much as bare metal.

As mentioned the best way to drastically cut radiated heat is to install 

light radiation shields, et allow free air passage.



Of course, it is up to each builder.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

 	  Quote: 	
		   What we have done is install light *radiation* shields a few millimeters 

 from the pipes where needed to prevent carbs or fuel lines from 'seeing' 

 the red hot exhausts or turbo. The free space between the exhaust and 

 'targets' allows free air passage. I did the same between the 4 into 1 and 

 the cowling.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   but I know Europa-philes are wary of non-Europa opinions


	


Gilles



As one Europaphile with much respect for the time and effort you have 

invested in ALL things to do with your non Europa aircraft, may I request 

what sort of material you used for same please.  Also, if you have a photo 

or two of your shields, any chance of attaching them to an email for the 

list please ?



Quite a few years ago, the exhaust of a V8 engine on our Glider winch used 

to regularly cook the end of the starter motor.  In a desperate attempt to 

mitigate this problem and after I had a sudden rush of blood to the head, I 

fashioned a very crude shield from a piece of tin and much to my 

astonishment, the problem never reappeared. so I have no doubts about your 

findings.



Many thanks



Kingsley in Oz.

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:36 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Hi! Kingsley,

I wouldn't bother welding the shields just fashion them with a flange

and use jubilee clips to hold them in place.

Bob H 



--

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Exhaust Lagging

Greeting Kingsley,



Take a peek at you muffler.  The top surface has a thin Aluminum

sheet heat shield.  I once thought it was stainless, but the OEM of the

Europa mufflers corrected me.  I does seem to work well, keeping the

banjo and the coolant hoses from toasting.

_________________
Ira N224XS

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Kingsley and all

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As one Europaphile with much respect for the time and effort you have 

 invested in ALL things to do with your non Europa aircraft, may I 

 request what sort of material you used for same please.  Also, if you 

 have a photo or two of your shields, any chance of attaching them to 

 an email for the list please ?


	


Thank you for the encouraging messages from the Europa community.



When the shield is very close to the exhaust, or attached to it, we've 

used stainless steel sheet (will have a look at the remaining sheets to 

get the exact specs) with bent tabs and stainless steel clamps. 

Otherwise, we attached the shield to the adjacent 'target' part. In that 

case, sheet aluminum attached with screws or rivets works well. The 

important thing is reflecting heat, and allowing free air passage on 

both sides of the shield.

I'll retrieve some photos, and maybe craft a small page on the subject.

Hope this helps a bit.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

Ira and all,



I've replaced that aluminum shield, twice, due to cracking.  Last 

shield, I made from thin stainless.  In fact it was the firewall 

material supplied in the kit.  No more cracking...



Jeff - Baby Blue



rampil wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Greeting Kingsley,

 

 Take a peek at you muffler.  The top surface has a thin Aluminum

 sheet heat shield.  I once thought it was stainless, but the OEM of the

 Europa mufflers corrected me.  I does seem to work well, keeping the

 banjo and the coolant hoses from toasting.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30484#230484

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

johnwigney(at)windstream.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: Exhaust lagging

Dear Europaphiles,



I agree with Gilles and Ira regarding the effectiveness of putting a 

simple reflector barrier between the hot exhaust system and sensitive 

areas such as oil hoses, fuel lines and carburettors. The oil return 

hose from the centre of the sump is particularly vulnerable. Some years 

ago, a Europa pilot in Florida had this rubber oil hose fracture in 

flight because it had been embrittled by heat. He got it down OK but 

there was oil everywhere.



When one stops the engine, there is a lot of radiant and convection heat 

soak from the muffler into the parts above, particularly the rubber oil 

return hose in the centre of the sump. I used some of the polished light 

gauge stainless sheet which was supplied for the firewall (I used Graham 

Singleton's phenolic firewall) to make a heat shield plate immediately 

above the muffler. It is secured at the front with small brackets to 2 

existing tapped holes in the engine and at the rear with 2 'p' clips to 

the engine mounting frame. I put 2 diagonal creases in the shield to 

prevent 'oil canning'. It works well.



Cheers, John

N262WF, mono XS, 912S

Mooresville, North Carolina



ORIGINAL MESSAGE

From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr>



Subject: Re: Exhaust Lagging

When the shield is very close to the exhaust, or attached to it, we've 

used stainless steel sheet (will have a look at the remaining sheets to 

get the exact specs) with bent tabs and stainless steel clamps. 

Otherwise, we attached the shield to the adjacent 'target' part. In that 

case, sheet aluminum attached with screws or rivets works well. The 

important thing is reflecting heat, and allowing free air passage on 

both sides of the shield.

I'll retrieve some photos, and maybe craft a small page on the subject.

Hope this helps a bit.

Best regards,-- 

Gilles

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:03 am Post subject: Exhaust Lagging

 	  Quote: 	
		   When the shield is very close to the exhaust, . . . . . .

 The important thing is . . . . . . ..

 Hope this helps a bit.


	


Sorry this is a little belated Gilles but have been working away this week

and have only just got home.



Many thanks for the above.  I'll manage to find some thin Stainless

Steel.  I already have plenty of suitable Aluminium AND I have an excellent

pair of tin snips.



A little trivia . . . .

Floods, Fire and Drought over here at the moment.

An area over 5 times the size of Great Britain is under flood.

Many times that is drought stricken and I don't know for sure how much has

been burned out in Victoria.



So, cheers from the land of contrasts.



Kingsley



do not archive

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Exhaust Lagging

Hi Jeff,



Included in my exhaust saga was a cracked heat shield as well.



When the entire exhaust system was replaced, the new shield was 

redesigned to prevent what were analyzed to be thermal expansion

induced cracks. The new system is still Aluminum from the OEM, but no

sign of cracks in the past 50 hours of flight time.

_________________
Ira N224XS

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