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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Engine monitoring

Kolbers C

  

   Question:  Doesn't the Rotax 912 use altitude compensating carbs?  It seems like I remember hearing that from years ago.  Or was it Bing carbs C in general?

  

   Regarding engine monitoring:  Are you guys aware that there a slew of gauges and sensors "out there" that you can use to know exactly what's going on with your engine?

  

   These "gauges & sensors" are stand-alone monitoring devices.  That is C they work all by themselves C and not dependant of anything else.

  

   Example:  a Wideband O2 sensor and digital gauge will tell you EXACTLY what your fuel/air ratio is.  The digital gauges have an alarm mode C in the event your engine becomes too lean.

  

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PLX-DEVICES-SM-AFR-DM-5-52MM-GAUGE-WIDEBAND-KIT-BLACK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQihZ022QQitemZ350177800390QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

  

   You can also get a digital EGT gauge ( with preset alarm parameters):

  

 http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&zenid=cfe62dc0326887ee2f3a93405677be5b

  

   I have BOTH of these gauges C along with several others C to provide detailed engine monitoring.  Maybe some of us don't care too precisely what is going on inside our engines C but I do.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: Engine monitoring

Frugal Herb here...



   Mike.  I wonder if any of the O2 sensors  are "less"  succeptible to leaded gas?     100 octane is the minuimum analysis...I  recall accepting the delivery of a truck of av gas at a local airport that had an analysis of 119 octane...  .  High Octane gas is regular gas with additives...to slow the burn mainly...everyone knows this I guess?   



 Maybe the O2 sensor can be brought back to life with a blow torch?  burn the lead off. 

  



   In our application...all that is needed is a single wire sensor with  the calibration curve--ie: micro  volts  output indicates  O2 ratio... This  output could be easily amplified and sent to an analog gauge , calibrated  to indicate the ratio.     The Zirconia sensor crosses to 14.7 ratio at about 400 micro volts ... an analog meter...0 to 1000 micro volts would suffice..



  In some applications of auto engines to planes; the O2 sensor is replaced by an adjustable voltage  source on the instrument panel... Poor mans  Mixture control...set by using the EGT gauge.. Feed the signal into the computer on the O2 input lines.. 



   Herb 

 Ps..



 

    Bro Pike



    Discovered a good use for our 20 buck noise reduction head phones...from the aviation dept at Wally.World...  When mowing ,,, no input ..just turn it on...stick the cable in your shirt pocket...   Good pair of noise muff's cost that much...



 

 At 10:18 AM 3/20/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Kolbers,

  

   Question:  Doesn't the Rotax 912 use altitude compensating carbs?  It seems like I remember hearing that from years ago.  Or was it Bing carbs, in general?

  

   Regarding engine monitoring:  Are you guys aware that there a slew of gauges and sensors "out there" that you can use to know exactly what's going on with your engine?

  

   These "gauges & sensors" are stand-alone monitoring devices.  That is, they work all by themselves, and not dependant of anything else.

  

   Example:  a Wideband O2 sensor and digital gauge will tell you EXACTLY what your fuel/air ratio is.  The digital gauges have an alarm mode, in the event your engine becomes too lean.

  

  http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PLX-DEVICES-SM-AFR-DM-5-52MM-GAUGE-WIDEBAND-KIT-BLACK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQihZ022QQitemZ350177800390QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW 

  

   You can also get a digital EGT gauge ( with preset alarm parameters):

  

  http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&zenid=cfe62dc0326887ee2f3a93405677be5b 

  

   I have BOTH of these gauges, along with several others, to provide detailed engine monitoring.  Maybe some of us don't care too precisely what is going on inside our engines, but I do.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII



  Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast.  Find out more. 

 [b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: Engine monitoring

Herb C



 



  Nope C I don't think ANY of the O2 sensors will work very well with a steady diet of leaded gasoline.  Eventually C you'll get lead buildup.  



  As far as cleaning them goes C I doubt a blow touch would be a good idea.  I haven't done a google search to see if anyone knows how to remove lead deposits from O2 sensors.  The O2 sensor I have says to mount it at least 24" away from the cylinders.  It will burn up if exposed to high heat (blow torch).



  Again C I haven't done the research C but I think some sort of chemical bath may clean them.  Just guessing C tho.  It's entirely possible that once they clogged with lead C they're shot!



 



  For very precise AFR (air/fuel ratio) readings C a person would want the Wideband O2 sensor/gauge.  The standard O2 sensor C with a voltage range of 0 to 1 volt C just isn't accurate enough for rapid determination of AFR

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Engine monitoring

I set my old teakettle solex up with a one wire sensor.  They are reasonably accurate but don't have any preheat function (reference stabilized voltage) like the gooder ones. -So to get a reading you have to set up an rpm,

wait for the voltage to stabilize, and write it down.  Maybe not too handy for everyday flight.

In my case I was only using it to set up the three frustrating variables of the idle, main and economizer jets.

THere was also a full throttle gas-dumper that I blocked off.

-A time consuming, stress inducing job, tail tied down, repeated throttle range runups, airplane jumping around,                                                                                                                                                                        but, once done, zero maintenance from then on.  The sensor is now on a shelf.

BB

On 20, Mar 2009, at 1:54 PM, Mike Welch wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Herb,

 

  Nope, I don't think ANY of the O2 sensors will work very well with a steady diet of leaded gasoline.  Eventually, you'll get lead buildup.  

  As far as cleaning them goes, I doubt a blow touch would be a good idea.  I haven't done a google search to see if anyone knows how to remove lead deposits from O2 sensors.  The O2 sensor I have says to mount it at least 24" away from the cylinders.  It will burn up if exposed to high heat (blow torch).

  Again, I haven't done the research, but I think some sort of chemical bath may clean them.  Just guessing, tho.  It's entirely possible that once they clogged with lead, they're shot!

 

  For very precise AFR (air/fuel ratio) readings, a person would want the Wideband O2 sensor/gauge.  The standard O2 sensor, with a voltage range of 0 to 1 volt, just isn't accurate enough for rapid determination of AFR.

  The wideband O2 sensor ranges from 0 to 5 volts.  (The sensitivity is much greater than a standard O2 sensor.)  The Wideband gauge likely contains all the electronics you mentioned.

 

Mike

MkIII

 

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:59:08 -0500

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

From: herbgh(at)nctc.com (herbgh(at)nctc.com)

Subject: Re: Engine monitoring



Frugal Herb here...



  Mike.  I wonder if any of the O2 sensors  are "less"  succeptible to leaded gas?     100 octane is the minuimum analysis...I  recall accepting the delivery of a truck of av gas at a local airport that had an analysis of 119 octane...  .  High Octane gas is regular gas with additives...to slow the burn mainly...everyone knows this I guess?   



Maybe the O2 sensor can be brought back to life with a blow torch?  burn the lead off. 

 



  In our application...all that is needed is a single wire sensor with  the calibration curve--ie: micro  volts  output indicates  O2 ratio... This  output could be easily amplified and sent to an analog gauge , calibrated  to indicate the ratio.     The Zirconia sensor crosses to 14.7 ratio at about 400 micro volts ... an analog meter...0 to 1000 micro volts would suffice..



 In some applications of auto engines to planes; the O2 sensor is replaced by an adjustable voltage  source on the instrument panel... Poor mans  Mixture control...set by using the EGT gauge.. Feed the signal into the computer on the O2 input lines.. 



  Herb 

Ps..

   Bro Pike



   Discovered a good use for our 20 buck noise reduction head phones...from the aviation dept at Wally.World...  When mowing ,,, no input ..just turn it on...stick the cable in your shirt pocket...   Good pair of noise muff's cost that much...

At 10:18 AM 3/20/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Kolbers,

 

  Question:  Doesn't the Rotax 912 use altitude compensating carbs?  It seems like I remember hearing that from years ago.  Or was it Bing carbs, in general?

 

  Regarding engine monitoring:  Are you guys aware that there a slew of gauges and sensors "out there" that you can use to know exactly what's going on with your engine?

 

  These "gauges & sensors" are stand-alone monitoring devices.  That is, they work all by themselves, and not dependant of anything else.

 

  Example:  a Wideband O2 sensor and digital gauge will tell you EXACTLY what your fuel/air ratio is.  The digital gauges have an alarm mode, in the event your engine becomes too lean.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PLX-DEVICES-SM-AFR-DM-5-52MM-GAUGE-WIDEBAND-KIT-BLACK_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQihZ022QQitemZ350177800390QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW 

 

  You can also get a digital EGT gauge ( with preset alarm parameters):

 

http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5&zenid=cfe62dc0326887ee2f3a93405677be5b 

 

  I have BOTH of these gauges, along with several others, to provide detailed engine monitoring.  Maybe some of us don't care too precisely what is going on inside our engines, but I do.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII



Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more. 

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

The Bing 64 is altitude and temperature  compensating.  How much?  I don't know.  John W and I both topped  out at 15,000 feet MSL with the 912ULS engines.

  

 I use basic engine instruments on my 912  engines:

  

 Tach

 Oil Press

 Oil Temp

 CHT

 Volt Meter

  

 These basic instruments have been all that was  necessary to operate the 912 engines safely.

  

 I like to keep my airplane as simple as  possible.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

 [quote]      Question:  Doesn't the Rotax    912 use altitude compensating carbs?  It seems like I remember hearing    that from years ago.  Or was it Bing carbs, in    general?

 

  Regarding engine monitoring:  Are you guys    aware that there a slew of gauges and sensors "out there" that you can use to    know exactly what's going on with your    engine?

 

  

Mike  Welch

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

John C

  

   Using the basic gauges you stated is probably all that's necessary in a well-proven engine like the 912.

   But C if a person has unique tuning problems C like AFRs causing lean mixtures C overheating issues C and such C then there are some excellent guages available.  

   For a select few C who aren't sure about how their engine is running C additional gauges may be helpful to allow them to dial-in their engine's adjustments.

   A Rotax 912 does it own density altitude adjustments.  A valuable feature C indeed C but few other engines are so sophisticated.

  

   Even my Cessna 172 didn't do "automatic leaning".  I had to turn the mixture control manaully C if I wanted to lean out the engine at altitude.  I sold it last June.

  

   Can a 2 cycle or 4 cycle motor C tuned at sea level C become way too lean C if a person were to fly it at 10 C000+ feet?  If it is possible for this to happen (climb into a lean condition) C at least there are gauges that may help them take a different tuning approach.

  

  

 Mike Welch

 

  From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Engine monitoring

Date: Fri C 20 Mar 2009 18:44:05 -0500



  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}   The Bing 64 is altitude and temperature compensating.  How much?  I don't know.  John W and I both topped out at 15 C000 feet MSL with the 912ULS engines.

  

 I use basic engine instruments on my 912 engines:

  

 Tach

 Oil Press

 Oil Temp

 CHT

 Volt Meter

  

 These basic instruments have been all that was necessary to operate the 912 engines safely.

  

 I like to keep my airplane as simple as possible.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      Question:  Doesn't the Rotax 912 use altitude compensating carbs?  It seems like I remember hearing that from years ago.  Or was it Bing carbs C in general?

 

  Regarding engine monitoring:  Are you guys aware that there a slew of gauges and sensors "out there" that you can use to know exactly what's going on with your engine?

 

  

Mike Welch

 





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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

I doubt you'll ever find an engine leaning out at  altitude.  Normally, they get richer because of less  oxygen/air.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]      Can a 2 cycle or 4 cycle    motor, tuned at sea level, become way too lean, if a person    were to fly it at 10,000+ feet?  If it is possible for this to    happen (climb into a lean condition), at least there are gauges that may help    them take a different tuning approach.

 

 

Mike    Welch

 

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

Oops!  Didn't think that one through.  Yeah C I guess they would get richer.  Duh.

  From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Engine monitoring

Date: Fri C 20 Mar 2009 19:47:07 -0500

  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}   I doubt you'll ever find an engine leaning out at altitude.  Normally C they get richer because of less oxygen/air.

 john h

 mkIII

  	  Quote: 	
		      Can a 2 cycle or 4 cycle motor C tuned at sea level C become way too lean C if a person were to fly it at 10 C000+ feet?  If it is possible for this to happen (climb into a lean condition) C at least there are gauges that may help them take a different tuning approach.

Mike Welch

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

I knew what you meant.  

  

 How is your mkIII coming along?

  

 Do you have someone lined up to teach you how to  fly a mkIII?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

MkIII is coming along very well C thank you.

  

 The entire plane is painted C except for striping.  I'm waiting to put on all the wing & hor. stabs. C  before I get around to any decorative stripes.

  

 All Lexan is cut and ready.  Just waiting on brakes to get done C before I can even think of locking myself out of easy access to the front end.

  

 Doors are finished C painted C and Lexaned.  

  

 Engine is mounted.  Prop is remounted C and properly torqued the bolts.  All miscellaneous thinks like radiator C intercooler C etc C mounts are made C items are secured in place.  I may be a week or so away from firing up the motor.

  

 What's really weird is C I can almost see light at the end of the tunnel.  After 10 years C I'm treading on new ground.  Kind of neat to finally see an "almost airplane".

  

 No C I haven't got anyone lined up yet C for training.  I talked to Jim Kmet last summer.  I doubt I need much training C just an orientation type flight.  I've got 700 hrs in Cessnas C and about 15 hours in dual ultralight trainers (QS MX II C and FlightStar).

  

 Youngest son is on his way home (right now).  Heading to Gulf Shores C AL C next week.  Visiting the grandkids.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

 

 

  From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Engine monitoring

Date: Fri C 20 Mar 2009 20:14:39 -0500



  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}   I knew what you meant.  

  

 How is your mkIII coming along?

  

 Do you have someone lined up to teach you how to fly a mkIII?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote] ---

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Engine monitoring

Mike.  I wonder if any of the O2 sensors  are "less"  succeptible to leaded gas?     100 octane is the minuimum analysis...I  recall accepting the delivery of a truck of av gas at a local airport that had an analysis of 119 octane...  .  High Octane gas is regular gas with additives...to slow the burn mainly...everyone knows this I guess?    

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


   

   

From what I know….  Which I will admit is not enough…..   may not be totally accurate.    My friend drives a gas delivery  truck and has done so for over 40 years…  he has been in the refineries,   as well as the pipeline  terminals…..     and he has told me that there is  what is called “ house gas”    which comes in regular “house gas” and premium “house gas”  .    Example,  Texaco refineries do not refine Texaco gas.   They refine “house gas”   when the gas hauler pulls up to the loading dock and inserts his load card and enters the amount to load….  The computers will mix in the additives into the house gas specified by Texaco  then it becomes Texaco gas.    Auto fuel does not sit in tanks for months and months…..   it is designed to run through the system and be consumed within a couple weeks.   Av gas on the other hand because it sits in the tanks for much longer times has to be refined in such a manner that more of the impurities are removed.   This extra refining is in large part responsible for the additional cost.  That added to the supply and demand at the local airport,,,,    the fbo has it and you need it,,,  and generally there is not  an av gas station on each and every corner,, so the competition or large volumes discounts is not there.  

   

Boyd   

   

       [quote][b]

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

Can a 2 cycle or 4 cycle motor, tuned at sea level, become way too lean, if a person were to fly it at 10,000+ feet?  If it is possible for this to happen (climb into a lean condition), at least there are gauges that may help them take a different tuning approach.

  

  

 Mike Welch

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  

   

If tuned for sea level….  And you go to 10,000 ft…  it will be running rich,,,,  however if you are at 5,000 ft and tuned up nice and go to sea level…  then you will be lean.  

   

Boyd   

       [quote][b]

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: Engine monitoring

Boyd, The primary reason that avgas costs more than mogas is due to shipping costs. Mogas can go through the pipeline system, avgas has to be transported by truck because of the lead.



Rick



 On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 10:16 AM, boyd <by0ung(at)brigham.net (by0ung(at)brigham.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                

  Mike.  I wonder if any of the O2 sensors  are "less"  succeptible to leaded gas?     100 octane is the minuimum analysis...I  recall accepting the delivery of a truck of av gas at a local airport that had an analysis of 119 octane...  .  High Octane gas is regular gas with additives...to slow the burn mainly...everyone knows this I guess?    

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


   

   

From what I know….  Which I will admit is not enough…..   may not be totally accurate.    My friend drives a gas delivery  truck and has done so for over 40 years…  he has been in the refineries,   as well as the pipeline  terminals…..     and he has told me that there is  what is called “ house gas”    which comes in regular “house gas” and premium “house gas”  .    Example,  Texaco refineries do not refine Texaco gas.   They refine “house gas”   when the gas hauler pulls up to the loading dock and inserts his load card and enters the amount to load….  The computers will mix in the additives into the house gas specified by Texaco  then it becomes Texaco gas.    Auto fuel does not sit in tanks for months and months…..   it is designed to run through the system and be consumed within a couple weeks.   Av gas on the other hand because it sits in the tanks for much longer times has to be refined in such a manner that more of the impurities are removed.   This extra refining is in large part responsible for the additional cost.  That added to the supply and demand at the local airport,,,,    the fbo has it and you need it,,,  and generally there is not  an av gas station on each and every corner,, so the competition or large volumes discounts is not there.  

   

Boyd   

   

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