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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: rivets

I noticed that the rivets holding the outer end of the drag strut and drag strut brackets apparently are regular steel rivets- not stainless steel.  The wings are about 1986 vintage.  Is this normal, or should they be changed to stainless?  This is on an original Firestar.  I noticed rust on the heads, and a magnet sticks firmly to them.

  

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                  FS 447

 [quote][b]

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: rivets

The original FS kits shipped with carbon steel pop  rivets.

  

 My 1986 FS Kit was shipped with carbon steel, but I  opted to spend a little more money and use SS.

  

 Yes, that was normal 23 years ago.   

  

 You'll have to be the judge of whether or not they  are still serviceable.

  

 Wing lift strut fittings were also riveted with  carbon steel rivets.  No doubt in my mind what I would do with them after  all these years.

  

 john h

  

 mkIII

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		      

                               I noticed that the rivets holding the outer end of the drag          strut and drag strut brackets apparently are regular steel rivets- not          stainless steel.  The wings are about 1986 vintage.  Is this          normal, or should they be changed to stainless?  This is on an          original Firestar.  I noticed rust on the heads, and a magnet          sticks firmly to them.

          

                                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                                   FS 447

 	  Quote:

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: rivets

William



   I had a vintage Kolb Ultrastar some years ago.  I bought it from a 

buddy who had stalled it in... It needed a complete uncovering and 

some rebuilding...



   If I am not mistaken...Steel rivets were the norm for many years 

on the early  Kolb models.  ? ....   that said....my impression is 

that they do very well.....little corrosion,,,no signs of the dreaded 

galvanic effect that is offered by some..   I would have no worries 

flying  a Kolb built with them...

   I notice , in other applications, that steel rivets seem to have 

less spring back  ...Herb

At 11:54 AM 3/27/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I noticed that the rivets holding the outer end of the drag strut 

 and drag strut brackets apparently are regular steel rivets- not 

 stainless steel.  The wings are about 1986 vintage.  Is this 

 normal, or should they be changed to stainless?  This is on an 

 original Firestar.  I noticed rust on the heads, and a magnet 

 sticks firmly to them.



                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                  FS 447

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: rivets

>   I notice , in other applications, that steel rivets seem to have 

 	  Quote: 	
		   less spring back  ...Herb

 
	




Will you explain the above please?



I don't understand what you are talking about.



john h

mkiii

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:14 am Post subject: rivets

John

    I  use a hand riveter...Have a grip like  Pop eye.!!

    When pulling stainless...I notice that I get more loose rivets 

that have to be drilled out... Steel rivets seem to be more 

conforming as one would expect...since they are of a softer,milder 

composition... Evidenced when drilling out!!    By the way...when 

were stainless rivets first used as a factory requirement?   Herb

At 12:53 PM 3/27/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >   I notice , in other applications, that steel rivets seem to have

>less spring back  ...Herb

Will you explain the above please?

I don't understand what you are talking about.

john h

mkiii

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: rivets

>    I  use a hand riveter...Have a grip like  Pop eye.!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

    When pulling stainless...I notice that I get more loose rivets that 

 have to be drilled out... Steel rivets seem to be more conforming as one 

 would expect...since they are of a softer,milder composition... Evidenced 

 when drilling out!!    By the way...when were stainless rivets first used 

 as a factory requirement?   Herb


	


I also use a hand pop rivet tool, always have.  May be getting too old for 

one now, although I popped about 10 each 1/8 X 1/2" rivets the other day 

without any big problems.



Never had a problem with loose SS rivets, although I must be careful to 

insure the rivet is fully seated before I start pulling.



I agree, SS is more difficult to pull than carbon steel pop rivets.



Little Mike, at Old Kolb, special ordered my SS rivets in 1986, for my FS. 

I am not sure when SS started getting shipped with the kits, probably some 

time around 1987 or 1988.  Dennis Souder probably remembers.



john h

mkiii

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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: rivets

At 01:12 PM 3/27/09 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



John



    I  use a hand riveter...Have a grip like  Pop eye.!!



    When pulling stainless...I notice that I get more loose rivets 

that have to be drilled out... Steel rivets seem to be more 

conforming as one would expect...since they are of a softer,milder 

composition... Evidenced when drilling out!!    By the way...when 

were stainless rivets first used as a factory requirement?   Herb




	


Herb,



I noticed the same thing.  After comparing the two the reason became clear.  

When looking at them with the flange to the bottom, one can see the steel 

rivets have less of a radius from the flat to the rivet body.  This lets 

them drop further into the hole before pulling the mandrel.  With stainless 

steel rivets it is important to slightly de burr or knock the edge off the 

hole to accommodate the rivet.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: rivets

I have had good results with Marson "Klik-Lok" rivets.  These are all 

aluminum, retained mandrel, specially made for weatherproofness and high 

vibration applications... 700# shear and 500# tensile in the 3/16" size I 

used.  I haven't used them on my UltraStar (the existing rivets look fine), 

but They're holding up fine in some high stress areas on one of my 

paramotors, with plenty of vibration (single cylinder motor).



The Klik-Loks aren't available in 1/8", but their Q-Lok's are... still 

retained mandrel, but in steel, and considerably stronger than standard pop 

rivets, particularly under vibration.  I plan to use either or both of 

these on the new airplane I'm designing.



-Dana

--

  Resist militant "normality" -- A mind is a terrible thing to erase.

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by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: rivets

I used an air driven rivet gun...  at first I was not happy with it..  it

set the rivets with the same speed as a nail gun...  then I built a flow

restrictor so that the rivet would take a couple seconds to pull, at that

speed I could push the joint tight and watch it pull the pieces together

even tighter as it set the rivet.



Boyd Young Kolb MKIIIC



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>

 With stainless 
	


steel rivets it is important to slightly de burr or knock the edge off the 

hole to accommodate the rivet.

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