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rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:18 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

Is there a way to adjust/modify the oil injection system on a Rotax 582 so that it meters at 100:1 instead of 50:1 at cruise?

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Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Hi Ryan,



What would be your reason to change a very proven worldwide mix?

Thousands of people have played with the oil mixture over the years with the 582 with costly results. There are really good reasons for 50:1

I would stay with it and enjoy the longevity and reliability of the 582 at 50:1, plus you need to maintain this engine just as the manual says to achieve those results.

If you are thinking of using AmsOil at 100:1 then you will have excessive wear issues and maybe engine failures when things like weather or other variables change.

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Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Ryan,   I have to agree with Roger.



Rotax has spent millions on R & D - what make s you think you have a better idea? 



Besides the oil injection when properly set up ( align the 2 marks on pump and lever)    You will get 50 to 1 at Wide open. in cruise you likely will see approx 65 to 1  ratio.   

Stick with API TC rated oil and my preferance is Mineral oil and after thousands of hours of two strokes alone I can tell you it works well. 



MY last 582 was over 500 hours and not de-carboned at all. Still ran fine.   



No need to re-create the wheel .  



Kitfox movies here using Mineral oil in Rotax Engines. 

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8



Dave

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rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

I really don't want to get in a debate over the advantages/disadvantages between petroleum vs synthetic based oils. And yes, it is to run Amsoil.  Does, anyone have an answer for the 100:1 question?

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  rawheels wrote: 	
		  I really don't want to get in a debate over the advantages/disadvantages between petroleum vs synthetic based oils. And yes, it is to run Amsoil.  Does, anyone have an answer for the 100:1 question? 	


Oddly enough Ryan you just got advice form two Rotax Techs. 



I do like Amsoil , They help me sell  new cranks. 



So you win -- no debate. 



Just the facts, Dave

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

 	  dave wrote: 	
		  Oddly enough Ryan you just got advice from two Rotax Techs. 	




Thats great Dave.  I really appreciate all the help you give us on this forum.  A engine that is constantly used always seems to go farther past TBO than an occasionally used one.  You could probably use vegetable oil with as much as you fly.  You seem pretty invulnerable to everything.



I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't value your opinion on the oil.  I've never heard of using mineral oil, but I've got two other Rotax techs that say the OEM recommended Pennzoil is crap.  Who to believe?  The one that will honor my overhaul warranty if I use Amsoil.

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Ryan, you have never heard of mineral oil?   Well it is likely the most popular oil for two strokes and after 35 years I have seen it all.  Don;t get me wrong as synthetics in two strokes do seem to lubricate ok , but where they lack is on corrosion protection.  



For the record I don;t use Pennzoil but I use mostly Bombardier XPS mineral oil .  It is API tC rated and if you engine sits for a few weeks or a month you don;t have ot worry about corrosion. Now if you live in a dry climate then synthetics will fare you better. Around here, no chance you would get the same protection.  



You really never heard of mineral oil?   Are you a real newbie?  Come on you are not serious ?   We not talking castor oil here .  



oh and if you are  not in a  dry climate you had better get used to using fogging oil in your engine or be prepared for a shortened engine life.  



Dave



 	  rawheels wrote: 	
		   	  dave wrote: 	
		  Oddly enough Ryan you just got advice from two Rotax Techs. 	




Thats great Dave.  I really appreciate all the help you give us on this forum.  A engine that is constantly used always seems to go farther past TBO than an occasionally used one.  You could probably use vegetable oil with as much as you fly.  You seem pretty invulnerable to everything.



I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't value your opinion on the oil.  I've never heard of using mineral oil, but I've got two other Rotax techs that say th



e OEM recommended Pennzoil is crap.  Who to believe?  The one that will honor my overhaul warranty if I use Amsoil.

PMorel

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

What does Rotax recommend for the 912?

   From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:23:28 PM

Subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

Ryan, you have never heard of mineral oil?  Well it is likely the most popular oil for two strokes and after 35 years I have seen it all.  Don;t get me wrong as synthetics in two strokes do seem to lubricate ok , but where they lack is on corrosion protection.  

For the record I don;t use Pennzoil but I use mostly Bombardier XPS mineral oil .  It is API tC rated and if you engine sits for a few weeks or a month you don;t  have ot worry about corrosion. Now if you live in a dry climate then synthetics will fare you better. Around here, no chance you would get the same protection.  

You really never heard of mineral oil?  Are you a real newbie?  Come on you are not serious ?  We not talking castor oil here .  

oh and if you are  not in a  dry climate you had better get used to using fogging oil in your engine or be prepared for a shortened engine life.  

Dave

rawheels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 dave wrote:

 > Oddly enough Ryan you just got advice from two Rotax Techs. 

 Thats great Dave.  I really appreciate all the help you give us on this forum.  A engine that is constantly used always seems to go farther past TBO than an occasionally used one.  You could probably use vegetable oil with as much as you fly.  You seem pretty invulnerable to  everything.

 I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't value your opinion on the oil.  I've never heard of using mineral oil, but I've got two other Rotax techs that say th

 e OEM recommended Pennzoil is crap.  Who to believe?  The one that will honor my overhaul warranty if I use Amsoil.

--------

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

http://www.cfisher.com/

Awesome *New Forum *

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth  

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237390#23739r?Kitfox-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Lit; 

 [quote][b]

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912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA

www.WingsAirPhotos.com

rawheels

Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Newbie?  Yes.  Don't get me wrong;  I've grown up my entire life on our family's airport, I am an A&P, multiple rated pilot, and have two aeronautics degrees from Purdue University.  However, I only have about 2 years flying behind a snowmobile/pwc 2-stroke.  The only thing I've used mineral oil for is breaking in a newly overhauled Continental.



There is one solid thing I do know about 2-strokes though, just about the entire internet content relating to them is a huge debate about what oil to use.  Guess we can add this thread to the pile.  I've seen synthetic, petroleum, blends and even vegetable/castor bean, but I must have glossed over the mineral oil discussion.  



It does look like XP-S (synthetic and mineral) is generally liked by all, just really expensive.

_________________
Kitfox IV-1200
Indianapolis, IN

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

XP-s is synthetic



XPS is mineral oil  and retail about 5$ to 6  a quart  in bulk



you can buy Castrol super two stroke at Walmart in Canada for 4.25 $ a quart  

they are both APIC TC Rated ( read the label ) 

Shell advance Ski doo oil as well avail for about 17 to 25 $ a gallon,



About the internet -- yup there is allot of Armchair captains, I do agree. 

I can tell you what works for me and me group of a dozen locals here that fly with out troubles.  



I don;'t sell oil  but the Amsoil sales guy does.  



Dave

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

Danielle Sassvile's site tell you the best

http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm



[quote="PMorel"]What does Rotax recommend for the 912?



 

   From: dave <dave>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 12:23:28 PM

Subject: Re: Oil injection conversion



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave>



Ryan, you have never heard of mineral oil?  Well it is likely the most popular oil for two strokes and after 35 years I have seen it all.  Don;t get me wrong as synthetics in two strokes do seem to lubricate ok , but where they lack is on corrosion protection.  



For the record I don;t use Pennzoil but I use mostly Bombardier XPS mineral oil .  It is API tC rated and if you engine sits for a few weeks or a month you don;t  have ot worry about corrosion. Now if you live in a dry climate then synthetics will fare you better. Around here, no chance you would get the same protection.  



You really never heard of mineral oil?  Are you a real newbie?  Come on you are not serious ?  We not talking castor oil here .  



oh and if you are  not in a  dry climate you had better get used to using fogging oil in your engine or be prepared for a shortened engine life.  



Dave

rawheels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 dave wrote:

 > Oddly enough Ryan you just got advice from two Rotax Techs. 

 

 

 Thats great Dave.  I really appreciate all the help you give us on this forum.ï¿½ A engine that is constantly used always seems to go farther past TBO than an occasionally used one.  You could probably use vegetable oil with as much as you fly.  You seem pretty invulnerable to  everything.

 

 I wasn't trying to imply that I didn't value your opinion on the oil.  I've never heard of using mineral oil, but I've got two other Rotax techs that say th

 

 e OEM recommended Pennzoil is crap.  Who to believe?  The one that will honor my overhaul warranty if I use Amsoil.



	




--------

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

http://www.cfisher.com/

Awesome *New Forum *

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth  

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237390#23739r?Kitfox-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Lit; 



  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Oil injection conversion

On Thu, April 2, 2009 10:21 am, rawheels wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The only thing I've used mineral oil for is breaking in a newly overhauled

 Continental.


	


I think you don't realize "mineral oil" is standard refined oil. What you're thinking

is that for break-in you used straight mineral oil, non-detergent. Synthetic oil is

extracted from mineral oil.



The most important consideration for motor oils is ash content. The lower the better.

That applies to both oil mix in fuel and oil for crankcase uses.



Bean oil (primarily from castor beans) is the third broad type.



 	  Quote: 	
		   There is one solid thing I do know about 2-strokes though, just about the entire

 internet content relating to them is a huge debate about what oil to use.  Guess we

 can add this thread to the pile.  I've seen synthetic, petroleum, blends and even

 vegetable/castor bean, but I must have glossed over the mineral oil discussion.


	


Mineral oil is standard motor oil, all of it, except full synthetics and vegetable oil.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It does look like XP-S (synthetic and mineral) is generally liked by all, just really

 expensive.


	


You pay a premium for close to zero ash content.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



VILLAGE IDIOTS



Stop debating? But that's what science is: "The scientific community

has gone through this chapter and verse. We have long since passed

the time when we should pretend this is a 'on the one hand, on the

other hand' issue. It's not a matter of theory or conjecture, for

goodness sake."

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Blame Rush: "President Obama's a good friend of mine, and I'd just

like to think about him and, you know, I know -- you know Rush

Limbaugh and a lot of jackasses give him a hard time right now. They

always trying to divide and conquer the country. They've already

ruined the country, and now he's trying to save the country, and I

want him to keep his head held high."

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Maybe she actually gets it: "If you are just fed up, at some point,

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understand why -- like they -- one of the things that I saw

recently, they have this whole thing about taxing 'the wealthy.'

Okay. Now, I don't mind that. I don't mind paying a little more tax

'cause I make a good living. But I don't want to get it coming and

going. I don't want to get the federal raised and then the state

raised and then the phone tax raised and then the television tax

raised and then the city tax. Back off me!"

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Americans? If I say to 10 co-workers, 'We all need to chip in

together to get this done,' and then say, 'So, Todd, open your

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sound ridiculous. But when Obama says the same thing to 300 million

Americans it's called 'leadership.'"

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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

Long experience with two strokes has shown the best wisdom is to use the 

ratio recommended by the engine manufacturer and NOT the oil distributor. I 

watched a guy with an old and rare east European two stroke destroy his 

motor using 50:1 where the original ratio was recommended at 20:1.

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

I though the injector was variable.  Giving around a 40:1 mix at idle and a

70:1 mix at cruise



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

As Dave mentioned there is the calibration on the injector pump.  I thought

as the rpm increased the mix ratio increased.  40:1 low Rpm to 70:1 high

rpm.  My understanding is this occurred because the quantity of fuel through

the base is much higher at high rpm the injector slows down a bit to give a

consistent usage per hour.  Dave says different and I must bow to his

superior practical knowledge on this one.  Never the less I'm sure if you

really want to you can adjust the arm of the injector pump to give a higher

mix ratio.  Even with the synthetic oil I'd be particularly careful about

messing around with mix ratios.  Amsoil themselves specify a 50:1 injection

ratio.  Rotax also asks for a 50:1 for premix.  I expect you are bucking a

trend and possible walking a tight rope here.



Noel



--

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

XPS is made by the guys who made the engine ....  'nuff said.  



What I learned in technical school is synthetic oils typically have lower

ash content and a lot more range of viscosity.  Unfortunately some of them

are so slippery they will actually drip off parts completely leaving them

prone to corrosion.  They are supposed to be great for people who use the

engines every day.



Noel



--

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:01 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

XPS is just about the cheapest two stroke oil we can get here...  It's the

only one sold in bulk.  In this neck of the woods if you want Amsoil bring

money!



As to a huge debate over engine oils...  When it comes to two strokes I

think people feel closer to their oil than to their wives.  They are

certainly a lot more protective and choosy about their oil!

Noel

--

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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

At 05:27 PM 4/2/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I though the injector was variable.  Giving around a 40:1 mix at idle and a

70:1 mix at cruise


	


Nah, it's the other way around. It gives 50:1 at high RPM and 70:1 at idle.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

_________________
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Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: Oil injection conversion

At 11:21 AM 4/2/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  It does look like XP-S (synthetic and mineral) is generally liked by 

all, just really expensive.


	


Ryan,

         A cheaper well liked alternative is Pennzoil 2-Cycle for Air 

Cooled Engines. It's now sold only in dinky 8 oz. bottles but is 

still cheapest here in SoCal, even after shipping. It's a lot cheaper 

if you can buy it locally. And the performance has been proven at 

least adequate over the years in test and in use.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

_________________
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Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Oil injection conversion

We have been running the citgo sea and snow oil for 15+ years in sleds and for the last 2 years in the 582.  I normally go through ~ 40 gallons of oil a year in the sled and planes.  We tore a 582 down after 250 hrs using this oil with no wear or carbon present.  The oil sells for 12-14 bucks a gallon.



My sleds that use power valves normally have to have the power valves cleaned every 500 miles if you use the arctic cat power valve oil ( manufacture recommended).  With the sea and snow, I have not had one issue or needed to clean power valves in thousands and thousands of miles.  We have used them in snowmachines for over a hundred thousand miles with no engine issues. ( various sleds added up) and one sled I know of with 14,000 very hard miles.

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