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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Stits

From: "pj.ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2009 10:26:25 +0100

 	  Quote: 	

In the Uk we have recently approved for a/s use a covering which is pre 

coloured. It is applied and then heat shrunk in the way modellers have been 

doing for some time.

Apparently expensive but cheaper than fabric plus paint and certainly 

cheaper in terms of time taken.

 	  Quote: 	

Pat,

Thansk for the tip.

Googled it and found: http://www.g-tlac.com/oratex.html

Claims to weight 120 gram per square meter -> 4.6 ounces per square yard 

with no painting required.  The "Benefit" list is outstanding.

Spec and instruction manual downloads can be found at this site.

Jack B. Hart FF004 

Winchester, IN

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: Stits

John



    My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the  Firefly (and that is all that was  only airframe I meant to discuss) can go overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb 



 

 At 03:36 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed method for the Polyfiber System.

  

 Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book dictates.  Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed fabric to save a nickle.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

      A Firefly needs its fabric treated  with a 50-50  mix of  brush 

  and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the 

  normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv 

  protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough     IMHO 

  ...  you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does add wt...



   

   

                     Herb,

 

  

 [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: Stits

I don't think not following instructions on  application of Polyfiber products has anything to do with making part 103 weight  with a FF.

  

 My concern has nothing to do with FF weight.   My primary concern is for me to apply the products as described in their  manual.  Then I don't have to worry about a problem arising some where down  the road.

  

 I covered my original FS with 1.6 Stitts.  It  was difficult to work with because the threads, warp and weave, was so tight,  additional lubrication was required to keep from burning the threads during the  weaving process.  Very light and puntured very easy.  Had a hell of a  time trying to keep the poly brush from fish eyeing.  Vowed never to use it  again.  I think the disignation was HS90X.

  

 I have also used generic fabric, to save a  buck.  Be careful and buy generic fabric (not certified with an FAA stamp)  from a reputable aviation supply house.  You want to use "virgin" polyester  dacron, dacron that has not been preshrunk.

  

 Every time I hear of someone bending the rules a  little with fabric application I think of Steve Whitman and his wife dying  because he did not follow instructions.  I also think of the fabric we  pulled from a FSII a couple years ago that was painted with automobile  paint.  The fabric had lost nearly all of its pull/tear resistance.   Was really scary.  I had flown that airplane, I think. ???

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]       My understanding..and I may    be incorrect ...is that the  Firefly (and that is all that was  only    airframe I meant to discuss) can go overweight very easily...with the    proscribed paint method... Herb  

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: Stits

John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?

  

                                                Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: Stits

No, you hadn't flown it at that time.  Unpucker!

 Larry C

 [quote]   ---

_________________
do not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: Stits

Steve, in his 90's and his wife were flying back to  OSH from Sun and Fun.  Somewhere over Tennessee, some fabric peeled off the  aileron or flap (I can not remember which), and the aircraft came apart in the  air.  Come to find out, Steve had mixed different kinds of products  and it failed.

  

 I tried to find some info on his accident, but to  no avail.  Any body find it in the NTSB  Accident Pages?  I think  it happened in 1994 or 95.  ???

  

 A little info on Steve:

  

 http://www.air-racing-history.com/PILOTS/Steve%20Whittman.htm

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

 [quote]    



                               John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?

          

                                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                                 Windsor Locks, Ct.

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: Stits

If I may:Steve Wittman Accident

   <   The February Sport Aviation has a summary of the findings of the NTSB on the cause of the crash of Steve Wittman’s O&O Special last April.  To condense and simplify the article greatly, it appeared that Steve  painted the Poly-Fiber covering to the plywood wing with the nitrate dope he had used for years with natural fiber wing coverings, instead of with the approved Poly-Brush.  The O&O Special flew for 10 years.  The NTSB believes that on the April trip back to Oshkosh, the fabric in front of the right aileron finally debonded and ballooned up, which caused the aileron and then both wings to flutter.  The wings separated from the aircraft.  The article stresses the importance of using components approved by the manufacturer when covering an aircraft.>

Steve came from the era of nitrate dope and had used it for many years on all his airplanes, racers included.  Back then you had the choice of nitrate or enamel.  

Enamel had good flexibility but was awful to use and progressively shrunk the fabric to the point of bending the underlying structures.

Nitrate had an extremely strong bond, dried fast and was shiny.  The big problem was brittleness so that thick applications would suffer cracks in flex areas.

One infamous symptom was called "ringworm" because of the circular cracks around projections.  Even later when butyrate paint began usage nitrate was

used for cementing fabric to structure.  IMO the problem began with polyester fabric.  When "grade A" cotton went bad, the whole works, fabric and paint got tossed.

Now we had fabric that would pass a punch test (don't ask me what I thought of that procedure) for seemingly forever while the glue and paint went bad.

Now the poly (vinyl) stuff seems to match up with endurance.  

BB





On 12, Apr 2009, at 7:30 PM, william sullivan wrote:

[quote]  John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?

  

                                                Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

  	  Quote: 	
		  

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: Stits

Thanks, John.  Steve was an interesting character.  I thought the Kolbs were small, but that photo of one of his racers makes a Kolb look like a transport plane.  

   I am going to stick with the Stits system.  Pat's system looks interesting for it's simplicity, but I do not have the experience to consider varying from an old standard.  I repaired several small areas that had Aerothane, and had no problems.  Appearance was satisfactory.  I am thinking of Polytone in  the Piper Trainer Blue- as recommended for lightweight coverings in the manual.  All options open while waiting out the weather.

  

                                                    Bill Sullivan

                                                    Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                    FS 447

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: Stits

What's the real advantage of Stits over Ceconite/dope?  Just the number of 

coats required?  I've repaired Ceconite (years ago) and Stits (last year) 

but never covered an entire airplane.



One thing I noticed is that the Stits chemicals smell much more evil/toxic 

than dope...though I realize that could be purely subjective, and I know 

neither are really healthy.



-Dana

--

  If there was any logic in this world, it would be men who ride 

side-saddle, not women.

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: Stits

I was chewing gum and painting Poly Tone , using  a breating device 

that had charcoal filters..It fit well  below mouth and around nose 

up to fore head...   I noticed after a while that the chewing gum 

began to disolve..  Acetone and Mek.... in the brew...Herb

At 08:35 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



What's the real advantage of Stits over Ceconite/dope?  Just the 

number of coats required?  I've repaired Ceconite (years ago) and 

Stits (last year) but never covered an entire airplane.



One thing I noticed is that the Stits chemicals smell much more 

evil/toxic than dope...though I realize that could be purely 

subjective, and I know neither are really healthy.



-Dana

--

  If there was any logic in this world, it would be men who ride 

 side-saddle, not women.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

04/12/09 13:14:00

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: Stits

Herb,

I believe your concern comes from the fact the factory warns to be 

careful so as not to over apply coatings because their weight adds 

up.  Got to keep in mind that plane was designed to meet the UL 

weight limit with minimum features and moderate paint.



If you going to apply multiple thick coats of silver and thick top 

coats to archive a  super smooth, high gloss paint appearance it will 

add weight.  After applying heavier coats of silver to top of all 

surfaces and little lighter coats to the underneath sides, then 

applying top coats, our paint had just a very slight signature of the 

weave showing.  It looked good then and still did when we sold it 8 

years later.

jerb



At 05:06 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  John



    My understanding..and I may be incorrect ...is that the  Firefly 

 (and that is all that was  only airframe I meant to discuss) can go 

 overweight very easily...with the proscribed paint method... Herb

At 03:36 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

>Not saying Herb's method won't work, but it is not the prescribed 

>method for the Polyfiber System.

>

>Personally, I'll continue to cover and process like the book 

>dictates.  Don't won't to take chances with improperly processed 

>fabric to save a nickle.

>

>john h

>mkIII

>    A Firefly needs its fabric treated  with a 50-50  mix of  brush

>and spray...after the first coat of poly brush is applied in the

>normal way...and use 50-50 til you are satisfied that the uv

>protection is good... Two cross coats is good enough     IMHO

>...  you are trying to make weight after all... and this stuff does add wt...

>                   Herb,



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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: Stits

Dana

--

  Alpha test version: too buggy  to release.    Beta test version: still too 

buggy to  release.    Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test  

version.>>

  

 Hi Dana,

 perhaps the samples tried were early. Reports of  approval by the LAA just  reported in the current magazine.

 I haven`t seen it but The Sherwood Ranger they  speak about in their blurb will no doubt be on show during the summer, probably  at Popham in May. I will keep an eye open for it.

  

 Can`t imagine Donaldson of the LAA approving it if  it doesn`t perform.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: Stits

At 10:37 PM 4/12/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <herbgh(at)nctc.com>



 

 I was chewing gum and painting Poly Tone , using  a breating device that had charcoal filters..It fit well  below mouth and around nose up to fore head...   I noticed after a while that the chewing gum began to disolve..  Acetone and Mek.... in the brew...Herb



  	  Quote: 	
		  

 What's the real advantage of Stits over Ceconite/dope?  Just the number of coats required?  I've repaired Ceconite (years ago) and Stits (last year) but never covered an entire airplane.



 One thing I noticed is that the Stits chemicals smell much more evil/toxic than dope...though I realize that could be purely subjective, and I know neither are really healthy.



 -Dana 	
	




 Sorry, I couldn't help myself.........

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Beauford Tuton" 



 



 Hate to say it, but you probably gotta just chuck all that stuff and start



 over... Didn't know they even bothered packaging MEK in pints... Get used



 to buying MEK by the 55 gal drum during the polyfiber covering festival...



 It is the "universal solvent" of Stitsdom.... you will clean everything with



 it... spray guns, tools, small neighborhood children, the cat, your



 underarms...whatever... by the way, it slam dunks athletes foot... but is



 pure hell on Tupperware... About three weeks into the covering frenzy, I



 found that if I did NOT get at least eight daily hours of intense MEK fumes,



 my hands shook so badly I had difficulty pouring gin, or lighting cigars....



 Relax, you will have a great time with the covering... have no



 trepidation... just watch the dumb little covering video 12 or 15 times...



 send a personal line of credit for 10 or 12 grand to your Stits pusher of



 choice, (you will know him like a brother by the time this is all over...)



 and wade in.... By the way, check your liver at the door.... after six



 weeks of MEK fume respiratory saturation, it will fall out on the floor if



 you bend over abruptly.... Most of the skin on your hands will grow back



 within the first year, so don't sweat that.... I never really gave a damn



 about my kids anyway, so not recognizing them any more is really no big



 deal... A man has to keep his perspective... health is of no real



 consequence... your family is only a passing concern... Remember, the only



 truly important thing in life is NO PINHOLES.... everything else is merely a



 fleeting distraction... For months, I would suddenly sit bolt-upright in



 bed in the wee hours, drenched in cold sweat, screaming "PINHOLES!!!



 PINHOLES!!!... and then retch onto an empty poly-brush can I kept alongside



 the bed for just such an eventuality... My long suffering Bride would then



 tiptoe out to the kitchen and bring me a warm glass of MEK, the only thing



 which would bring me ease at such times...



 I worked through it, Lar.... like Crazy Louise in high school... like Viet



 Nam... like hepatitis... like marriage.... You will eventually find your



 way, too... Covering is just something a man need to work out for himself...



 no one else can really help... kinda like a sick indian going off by



 himself to die... Be of stout heart and good demeanor... you will



 triumph...



 Hang tough...



 Beauford

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Stits

....good grief, Possum....  you'll save  anything.... Have you no shame,Sir...?

  

 ...gotta go... time for my bedtime  I.V....

  

 dissolved beauford...

  

 Do NOT Archive...

  

 [quote]   ---

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: Stits

[quote] ---

_________________
do not archive

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:52 am Post subject: Stits

I could hear the Bats in the rafters  squealing and raising hell. That has been two years and have not had a speck of  guano since. Mosquitoes are worse though.>>

  

 Good grief , mosquitos crap on your wings?   Where are you, Alaska?  I understand that the mosquito is the State  bird.

  

 heh heh

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: Stits

Mosquitos and the Cessna 180 are tied for Alaska's State Bird--do not archive



On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:51 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I could hear the Bats in the rafters squealing and raising hell. That has been two years and have not had a speck of guano since. Mosquitoes are worse though.>>

 

Good grief , mosquitos crap on your wings?  Where are you, Alaska?  I understand that the mosquito is the State bird.

 

heh heh

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
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 [quote][b]

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Stits

A lot of those Canadian, and Alaskan mosquitos  weigh over  a pound and a half.

On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:19 AM, russ kinne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mosquitos and the Cessna 180 are tied for Alaska's State Bird--do not archive



On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:51 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I could hear the Bats in the rafters squealing and raising hell. That has been two years and have not had a speck of guano since. Mosquitoes are worse though.>>

 

Good grief , mosquitos crap on your wings?  Where are you, Alaska?  I understand that the mosquito is the State bird.

 

heh heh

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
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 [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: Stits

And that's just the stinger!

On Apr 14, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:

[quote]   A lot of those Canadian, and Alaskan mosquitos  weigh over  a pound and a half.

On Apr 14, 2009, at 9:19 AM, russ kinne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mosquitos and the Cessna 180 are tied for Alaska's State Bird--do not archive



On Apr 14, 2009, at 4:51 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I could hear the Bats in the rafters squealing and raising hell. That has been two years and have not had a speck of guano since. Mosquitoes are worse though.>>

 

Good grief , mosquitos crap on your wings?  Where are you, Alaska?  I understand that the mosquito is the State bird.

 

heh heh

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
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[b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: Stits

The FAA uses Michigan mosquitoes as test birds for  windshields and jet engines.

  

 Surely do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 [quote]   ---

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