Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Ready to start project

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Ready to start project
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

Hello,



Ive been lurking here a while and notice alomost all

the current projects are 601XLs. I got a demo flight

in the factory one at Camarillo last year. I was also

given a demo flight in a Jabiru 3300 powered Sonex

taildragger by one of the members of my EAA chapter,

96 at CPM. I am a 200hr private pilot, most time in

152's and some in the Katana. From that experience and

for other reasons, I will not own a Rotax engine. 



The bottom line is that after much study I am ready to

buy plans for the tri-gear 601HD and my current engine

choice is Corvair. Is anyone else here building or

flying this same combination?



Sonex - best performance for the buck, but not as

comfortable or stable for long flights or insurable

(per Avemco).



601XL - More complex, heavier and more costly.



601HD - Just right. 



Before I order plans, opinions from this group,

please.



Jim

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

Ask this on the Corvair list too. There may be an HD/Corvair owner who

monitors that list but not this one. I'm sticking a Corvair engine on the

front of my XL but I think (others can correct me) that most or all of the

components William Wynne has developed for the XL will also work on the HD.



BTW - I thought the HDS was an "improved" HD. What made you choose one over

the other?



-- Craig

LHusky(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

Jim, Congrats on getting ready to start.  I did a lot of research on  all the 

Zenith models and I chose to build the XL from plans.  I have never  worked 

with metal before, so this was a big ordeal for me.  I am halfway  through the 

tail section and find that this is not that difficult.  When I  started, I was 

worried that I could not do this, but now, I am confident that I  can.  The 

XL is just a better choice for me.  I like the landing gear  much more than the 

HD.  Make sure you have a band saw and a drill  press.  You dont need them, 

but they sure help a lot.  Also, a good  belt/disc sander is also helpful.  I 

would also suggest a pneumatic  riveter.  I have both the hand and pneumatic.  

Good luck and let me  know if you need anything.   

 

Larry Husky 

Finsihing tail

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

--- Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <craig(at)craigandjean.com>

 


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 BTW - I thought the HDS was an "improved" HD. What

 made you choose one over

 the other?

 

 -- Craig

 
	


 

The HDS model is not LSA due to the higher speeds, top

and stall. I think the XL has flaps because of the

slight taper and different airfoil. Wing tanks and

flaps I want to avoid to make trailering the aircraft

more practical due to fewer things to connect and

disconnect. I am concerned a little about fuel CG with

the header tank, but a Corvair is supposed to be no

heavier than a Rotax or Subaru.



Jim

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

Hi Jim,



I think the most important question in your model choice is what your 

own goals are.  If your goal is to build a plane that has the flight 

characteristics of a trainer and minimize your engine cost then your 

HD/Corvair combination sounds like it might be a good one.  On the 

other hand if you want maximum Light Sport Plane performance along 

with maximum climb and lightest weight then I think an XL with Jabiru 

3300 might be a good choice.  Of course. the second combination will 

cost a lot more than the first one.



I think the only way to make the ideal choice is to first make as 

many clear decisions as possible about your own wishes.  Then it is a 

lot easier to choose which model or engine will best meet your own needs.



Have fun,



Paul

XL wings -- currently planning to use Jab - 3300, but still at least 

6 months away from a final decision.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Ive been lurking here a while and notice alomost all

the current projects are 601XLs. I got a demo flight

in the factory one at Camarillo last year. I was also

given a demo flight in a Jabiru 3300 powered Sonex

taildragger by one of the members of my EAA chapter,

96 at CPM. I am a 200hr private pilot, most time in

152's and some in the Katana. From that experience and

for other reasons, I will not own a Rotax engine.



The bottom line is that after much study I am ready to

buy plans for the tri-gear 601HD and my current engine

choice is Corvair. Is anyone else here building or

flying this same combination?

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: Ready to start project

What are the differences between the new XL and the HD or even the 601 UL 

for that matter? I've looked at the site but there is not a direct 

comparison on construction.

shilocom(at)mcmsys.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:17 am Post subject: Ready to start project

I think it's about looks you prefer and speed.  Bob U. 



---

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Jimbo,

First off all welcome. Im in the first stages of

plans building. I had the same dilemmas that you have

before I decided to order the 601XL plans. I favored

the XL over the HD because of the following reasons.

-	The XL have better performance.

-	While the HD might be easier to attach and remove

wings, both of them are laborious enough to make it

impractical trailering every time you are going to

fly. Ive decided to bring the plane home only once a

year during hurricane season for protection,

maintenance and check up. None of them are difficult

enough for Occasional trailering. The flaps are not

difficult to connect, check some of the builder web

sites and you will see that no tool is required to

connect the flaps. 

-	Header tank make for easy wing removal and

reattachment but wing tank are safer. Im uneasy to

the idea of a gasoline tank over my feet.

-	There is not much difference in complexity during

building, the only difference will come when making

your wing rear ribs, in the HD you will use one set of

bending blocks while in the XL you will need 9.

-	Im 6 with disproportional long legs, the XL have

better leg room.

-       Not a strong reason but the XL looks better.

For a while I though that I was going to go with the

HD, I dont regret changing my mind to the XL.

William Dominguez

Plansbuilt 601XL

--- Jimbo <jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com>

 --- Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:

 > 

 > <craig(at)craigandjean.com>

 > 

 > 

 > BTW - I thought the HDS was an "improved" HD. What

 > made you choose one over

 > the other?

 > 

 > -- Craig

 The HDS model is not LSA due to the higher speeds,

 top

 and stall. I think the XL has flaps because of the

 slight taper and different airfoil. Wing tanks and

 flaps I want to avoid to make trailering the

 aircraft

 more practical due to fewer things to connect and

 disconnect. I am concerned a little about fuel CG

 with

 the header tank, but a Corvair is supposed to be no

 heavier than a Rotax or Subaru.

 Jim

 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 Admin.

bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Randy Stout in San Antonio has an HD with a Corvair:



http://www.geocities.com/r5t0ut21/



His numbers are (with pilot only) "Top Speed 122mph (that's just over 100

knots) Cruise speed 107mph (that's a dismal 93knots, my buddie's Taylorcraft

cruises at that)



Check out Randy's web page and see if you can contact him directly.  He also

participates in the matronics Corvair list if you can't get him any other

way.



The Sonex is considerably faster, but you're quite right about the cross

country comfort level (IMHO).  As far as the Sonex being insurable, there

are over 110 flying and yea you can get insurance at a reasonable price,

(but NOT if you put a Corvair in it..)  



The XL is the "updated" design of the Zodiac family, you will get "real" LSA

performance out of the XL (not Taylorcraft performance).  Yes it is a bit

more complicated to build with the flaps and wing tanks, but it's quite

worth it..  Your resale value will be higher. (Between being the more

"updated" design, and the fact that you will get some interest from people

looking at buying factory new xls for $85-100K).  On those long cross

countries you were concerned about, you will arrive 25% faster (at least).

And the extra complexity of the wingtanks/flaps will be offset by all the

work that William Wynne has been, and continues to do on the Corvair/XL

combo to make it a complete FWF "drop in" package, where a lot of the

engineering for the HD you will have to do yourself (OK, it's not THAT

different, but still).



Also I assume, since you are looking at the Corvair you've read all of WW's

web page?  www.flycorvair.com 



Short answer:  build the XL you'll be MUCH happier in the end....

-Bruce Johnson

Scratch building a Sonex near San Antonio,TX  but the XL was VERY close on

my short list.



[quote] --

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: Ready to start project

William Dominguez wrote:



First off all welcome. Im in the first stages of

plans building. I had the same dilemmas that you have

before I decided to order the 601XL plans. I favored

the XL over the HD because of the following reasons.



<snip> 



-	Header tank make for easy wing removal and

reattachment but wing tank are safer. Im uneasy to

the idea of a gasoline tank over my feet.



-	There is not much difference in complexity during

building, the only difference will come when making

your wing rear ribs, in the HD you will use one set of

bending blocks while in the XL you will need 9.



<snip>



On the header tank question, leading edge wing tanks to fit the HD wings are

an available option.  I have that option and my fuel system is close to the

newer XL fuel system available on the ZAC site.



On the complexity item, the HD gear boxes have been considered a difficult

part of the HD to build over the years.  I built my boxes some time ago and

have recently installed the gear legs and the bungee cords.  Despite all the

discussion, I found it to be less of a problem that I expected.  Getting the

bolts into the confined space was frustrating, but only for a couple hours.

In fact, I took it apart and put it back together without a real problem.  I

did benefit from all the suggestions available on the list for it.  



And as far as the canopy is concerned, I simply ordered the front hinged XL

canopy as opposed to the side opening canopy. 



I preferred the HD over the HDS because the stall speed is lower and meets

the LSA requirements.  Neither the HD or the HDS are fast aircraft.



Jeff Davidson

601 HD Jab 3300A

rbutterfield(at)mebtel.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Ready to start project

At 05:38 AM 3/24/06, dgoddard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  What are the differences between the new XL and the HD or even the 601 UL

for that matter? I've looked at the site but there is not a direct 

comparison on construction.


	




Here is a comparison:

www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/xl-compare.html



The HD is the original design. Straight stub wings, and the 

relatively thick wing chord is constant all the way out.

www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hd.html



The HDS has as it's only difference shorter, tapered outer wings. 

This increases both the stall and the top speed.

www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hds.html



The UL was designed to meet the European and Canadian restriction for 

Advanced Ultralight (gross under 480 kg etc). It has slightly lighter 

construction than the HD, but is otherwise identical.

www.zenithair.com/zodiac/601-ul.html



The XL was designed within the limitations of the Sport Pilot 

category, to be as much plane as possible and still fit the 

requirements. Among the changes are a different (thinner) slightly 

tapered wing section, full-length wing panels (no stub wings), some 

heavier construction for the higher gross, and spring main gear 

instead of bungee.

www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/index.html



(all below figures with 100hp)

HD-     gross-1200      stall(at)1050-44   cruise-120

HDS-    gross-1200      stall(at)1050-54   cruise-135

UL-     gross-1058      stall(at)1050-44   cruise-120

XL-     gross-1300      stall(at)1300-44   cruise-134



Bottom line, if you want to go somewhere and take something with you, 

the XL is probably the best choice. Otherwise, whatever best fits 

your specific requirements.



Regards,

RonB

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:38 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Hello Jim,



First off check out the insurance costs...I did'nt and got a nasty

surprise when I found that for a while the Subaru conversions were

almost uninsurable!...Now we have found ram Performance who can stop the

valve guides falling out of the heads these insurance issues have gone

away. Not saying the Corvair is a bad choice just make sure you know

what you are getting into.



Your engine comment is interesting about not owning a Rotax...Why not?

It has prven itself to be the most relaible engine out there, not that

others are bad...Jabaru I don't think has the same track record, Subarus

were a disaster to be quite honest until the builders finally engineered

the package properly...(It's a great and cheapish engine now..Ram

Performance is the only one I would purchase) and the Corvair conversion

does not have the track record either.



Really if your trying to stick to what you know I would build an

airplane with an o235, 320 or 360 Lycoming....A Corvair may kinda look

like these engines but its not the same...Once again not saying its

bad...Just not the same.



While we are on the subject, have you flown the RV-9(a)? Quite a bit

faster and about the same cost (Ok I'm guessing here a little) as long

as you compare apples to apples..i.e with an o235 in both airplanes. And

the insurance cost would be an interesting comparison.



The RV-9 is not a SP airplane of course.



Frank

601 HDS 393 hours



 



--

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Jim,

LSA performance guidelines can be met by the HDS if it is built correctly.

The first HDS to be evaluated in this context was determined not to meet 

stall requirements.

Since then, several HDS builders have found that they do meet the stall 

requirements and have

documented it.  Zenith also agrees that it is a plane by plane assesment 

during testing.

The FAA inspector of my aircraft concluded that my 601HDS was compliant, 

does in

fact meet this standard and it's recorded in my POH.  It's only because 

it's very close margin

that this is question naturally comes up.

It will never be a LSA in the manufacturer's context, but a sport pilot 

can fly it.



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



 	  Quote: 	
		   

The HDS model is not LSA due to the higher speeds, top

and stall. I think the XL has flaps because of the

slight taper and different airfoil. Wing tanks and

flaps I want to avoid to make trailering the aircraft

more practical due to fewer things to connect and

disconnect. I am concerned a little about fuel CG with

the header tank, but a Corvair is supposed to be no

heavier than a Rotax or Subaru.



Jim

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Completed my HDS stall testing at gross weight two nights ago and indeed

it fits within SP requirements...its close but its in!



Frank

601HDS stall (at) 50.6mph CAS



Do not archive 



--

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

Some of Zenith's literature, as I remember, remarked that the XL is the

easiest of them all to build. People assume the tapered wing is a big a deal

but it's really not. I don't know much about the HD but, a guy I did the

workshop with was planning on going with the HD because of more useful load

(he's a big guy) seems I remember Nick or Sebastian reiterating that the XL

is easier to build (not sure the difference between kit and plans on this).

Also The Corvair tends to be a little heavier than the Rotax, Jab etc. and

the XL can have installed weight up to 300 pounds. The HD has max 265lbs FWF

(including header tank) Also doesn't the XL have larger fuel capacity (30

gal--all in the wing) with or without the header tank. Don't discount the XL

just because of a perceived degree of complexity. I would ask the factory

about this to clarify. I think the XL being a newer design accounts for the

ease of its construction--especially now that we have gone to .025 on the

fuse skins (we no longer need all those gussets). Just stuff to think

about--It is a hard decision.



Kevin Bonds



Nashville TN



601XL Corvair powered; Plans building.



Empennage done; working on wings and engine.



http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds



 



do not archive DO NOT ARCHIVE 



 

--

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: Ready to start project

I bet poor Jim wishes he never went public with his choice: he is either

getting annoyed with all the second-guessing or wondering if he made the

right choice. 



-- Craig

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Quite the opposite. This discussion is exactly what I

wanted. This is really helping me a lot. Keep it

coming. My decision is not final and have not ruled

out the XL. 



Jim



--- Craig Payne <craig(at)craigandjean.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <craig(at)craigandjean.com>

 

 I bet poor Jim wishes he never went public with his

 choice: he is either

 getting annoyed with all the second-guessing or

 wondering if he made the

 right choice. 

 

 -- Craig

jimandmandy(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: Ready to start project

--- "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"

<frank.hinde(at)hp.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde(at)hp.com>

 

 Hello Jim,

 

 First off check out the insurance costs...I did'nt

 and got a nasty

 surprise when I found that for a while the Subaru

 conversions were

 almost uninsurable!...Now we have found ram

 Performance who can stop the

 valve guides falling out of the heads these

 insurance issues have gone

 away. Not saying the Corvair is a bad choice just

 make sure you know

 what you are getting into.


	


I only talked to Avemco so far. They carry my renters

insurance and are a direct writer, not broker. They do

not yet insure the Sonex, but do insure the 601.

Alternative engines raise the rate, but they will

insure them. I need to talk to a broker as well.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Your engine comment is interesting about not owning

 a Rotax...Why not?


	


The FBO who rented me the Katana was sold on the lower

costs compared to a tradtional aircooled direct-drive

setup. Except for lower fuel burn, it was more

expensive because it never went to TBO and cost a lot

more to overhaul than was promised. Diamond Aircraft

gave up on Rotax and went with Continental. I also

cannot tolerate the five minute limitation on full

power due to gearbox overheating issues. Rotax has had

slipper clutch problems, valve keeper problems, severe

internal corrosion problems, several rocker arm

redesigns, and the list goes on. I get to see all the

SB's because I know a Rotax owner. Getting 80-100hp

reliably out of 80 cubic inches just isnt possible.



With the latest crankshaft fiasco, even Lycoming

cannot be trusted. The owner always pays for the

vendors mistakes. William Wynne seems to be able to

take care of his customers better than these big

companies can. There are two Corvair engines currently

under construction at my EAA chapter, so I will have

some practical knowlege available by the time I have

to commit to a powerplant choice. 



Jim

Darrellhaas(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Jim,

    I haven't made up my mind on what to make. I am enjoying all this 

information.

Thanks,

Darrell

Troutdale, Oregon

---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: Ready to start project

Yes but there have been great experiences with the Lycomming clones,

from Superior, Mattituck and Aerosport. Mattituck at least is now

dealing with smaller Continental motors. Might be worth a look.



These are new engines too, remember that old engines have gone some way

through their fatigues lives. In other words if you vibrate something

hard enough and long enough it will break. Fourtunatly components are

designed to break well after they have worn out...Usually!



So the old Subaru is not that bad of a choice after all then....



Frank

HDS (I have a buyer!) 393 hours Stratus soob



Frank



 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello Jim,

 

 First off check out the insurance costs...I did'nt and got a nasty 

 surprise when I found that for a while the Subaru conversions were 

 almost uninsurable!...Now we have found ram Performance who can stop 

 the valve guides falling out of the heads these insurance issues have 

 gone away. Not saying the Corvair is a bad choice just make sure you 

 know what you are getting into.


	


I only talked to Avemco so far. They carry my renters insurance and are

a direct writer, not broker. They do not yet insure the Sonex, but do

insure the 601.

Alternative engines raise the rate, but they will insure them. I need to

talk to a broker as well.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Your engine comment is interesting about not owning a Rotax...Why not?


	


The FBO who rented me the Katana was sold on the lower costs compared to

a tradtional aircooled direct-drive setup. Except for lower fuel burn,

it was more expensive because it never went to TBO and cost a lot more

to overhaul than was promised. Diamond Aircraft gave up on Rotax and

went with Continental. I also cannot tolerate the five minute limitation

on full power due to gearbox overheating issues. Rotax has had slipper

clutch problems, valve keeper problems, severe internal corrosion

problems, several rocker arm redesigns, and the list goes on. I get to

see all the SB's because I know a Rotax owner. Getting 80-100hp reliably

out of 80 cubic inches just isnt possible.



With the latest crankshaft fiasco, even Lycoming cannot be trusted. The

owner always pays for the vendors mistakes. William Wynne seems to be

able to take care of his customers better than these big companies can.

There are two Corvair engines currently under construction at my EAA

chapter, so I will have some practical knowlege available by the time I

have to commit to a powerplant choice. 



Jim

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum