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NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US
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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I doubt that that incident involved flutter. As I recall, the pilot  

lowered the nose and increased his airspeed to get out of the  

situation. That maneuver would probably have been fatal if flutter had  

been involved. It was probably strong turbulence from the thermals  

above the plant.



On Apr 15, 2009, at 5:21 PM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Who has the plane that experienced flutter over the power plant? Did  

 that badboy have hinged or hingless ailerons?


	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Yes, some of the members of the list discussed (at that time) that what he first related in his post was just a severe turbulence, but the crowd (of "experts") shouted FLUTTER!!!    and flutter was named...    

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

Do not archive.

--- On Wed, 4/15/09, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 6:09 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin

<bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



I doubt that that incident involved flutter. As I recall, the pilot lowered the

nose and increased his airspeed to get out of the situation. That maneuver would

probably have been fatal if flutter had been involved. It was probably strong

turbulence from the thermals above the plant.



On Apr 15, 2009, at 5:21 PM, ashontz wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz"

<ashontz(at)nbme.org>
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Who has the plane that experienced flutter over the power plant? Did that

badboy have hinged or hingless ailerons?
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 


	




--Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

	
	


           [quote][b]

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Just got back from a post-maintenance test flight  after my periodic 50 hr inspection/requirements (oil chg/filter/Jab head torque  check/valve clearance check/prop bolt torque check, visual inspections,  etc) and nose bungee replacement.

  

 Some comments on the NTSB Report:

  

 Flutter may have had some impact on the XLs, but I  believe that the light stick forces are more likely to have caused any wing  removals. Today while pulling a measured 2gs (as shown on my EFIS) the stick was  still light and the g forces in the semi reclining mode with my arm on my leg  did not give the same feeling as sitting up in a Cessna with my arm  extended.

  

 No complaints about stick forces by me - I  like the light stick on the XL.

  

 My cable tensions were under "spec" for the first  440 hrs on my XL.

  

 I sure hope the FAA does not consider grounding any  Experimentals.  Next on the plate would them probably be any  Experimentals with non-certified engines and, and  then and -- ??????????????

  

 Just REMEMBER to REDUCE SPEED to Va in moderate or  above turbulence.

  

 (It was JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com (JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com) who encountered  severe turbulence over the power plant and reported diving  away to stop  his wings from flapping)

  

 Tony Graziano

 XL/Jab3300; N493TG; 482 hrs



 [quote]   ---

Juan Vega Jr

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

All;

it is so obvious i reading the report twice, and when you read the accident reports, someone has lobbied the ntsb HARD!.  in the accident reports, there is no mention of flutter. Yet, the NTSB report says people were quoted in the report , when they were in fact not.  This is Horse S#$!(at)T.



Juan



--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 09:36:14PM -0400, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   it is so obvious i reading the report twice, and when you read the

 accident reports, someone has lobbied the ntsb HARD!.  in the accident

 reports, there is no mention of flutter. Yet, the NTSB report says people

 were quoted in the report , when they were in fact not.  This is Horse

 S#$!(at)T.


	


Juan, I'm furious right now about not being able to finish up my CFI-SP

because of the NTSB's recommendation.



Even so, I recognize that there may be some fire under all that smoke.



You've continually buried your head in the sand over this issue. You've

attributed every accident to pilot or builder error.



Not ONCE have you offered an explanation for the crash of N158MD, which was

built by AMD and flown conservatively. Never. NOT FUCKING ONCE.



I've had it with you. Put up or SHUT THE FUCK UP!



The NTSB doesn't get lobbied. It doesn't get bribed. It doesn't cry wolf.

If they say there's an issue, there's an issue.



Why do you insist on ignoring the problem?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 07:21:15PM -0700, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Juan has more credibility here than you since he built rather than

 purchased his airplane.  So too, he has given his time to help kids build

 an airplane.


	


Whether Juan has more credibility than I do, others will have to judge. I do

think highly of his efforts to get kids involved in aviation.



The problem I have is his adamant refusal to consider that there may be a

real problem here even in the face of facts that disprove his pet theory -

facts that have repeatedly been pointed out to him, and which he continues

to shamelessly ignore.



I will neither apologize for, nor edit, those comments.



My tone may have been intemperate, and for that I will apologize. I'm

feeling a lot of unfocused anger right at the moment due to having to put

off something I've been working towards diligently for 6 months because of

the issue. Juan's posting provided me with a target.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:39 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

It was not obvious to me anyone is lobbying for NTSB but it is obvious to me that someone really favored Zenith here.

   From: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com; zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:36:14 PM

Subject: Re: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>

All;

it is so obvious i reading the report twice, and when you read the accident reports, someone has lobbied the ntsb HARD!.  in the accident reports, there is no mention of flutter. Yet, the NTSB report says people were quoted in the report , when they were in fact not.  This is Horse S#$!(at)T.

Juan

-----Original  Message-----

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

Sent: Apr 15, 2009 4:26 PM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org (ashontz(at)nbme.org)>

There were copied e-mails from Matronics in the recommendation? Honestly, I'm kind of up in the air personally about seeing this getting a once over from the FAA. Be nice to know for sure, certainly sounds like aileron flutter. Certainly never wanted to see any publicity about it though. Any publicity there is though I'd say probably has more to do with foreign safety boards grounding the XL. Doubt there was anyone  actively lobbying for it here.

Juan Vega Jr wrote:

> in reading this faa letter, it seems that someone has been lobbying the safety board to ground the plane and that this report was done based on someones lobbying efforts copying the safety on the emails on this site.  I would love to know who is the S%#(at)thead that was hell bent on pushing this.  

> 

> Juan

> --

--------

Andy Shontz

do not archive

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239347#239347

<                    -Matt==

            [quote][b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Denial is the first stage in the normal grieving process.



Paul

do not archive



At 06:55 PM 4/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Why do you insist on ignoring the problem?

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I'm still here folks. I'm the power plant flutter guy and by  the way, the 

removed the aileron cables and replaced them with push rods guy.  Best 

regards, Bill of Georgia 

 

 

In a message dated 4/15/2009 9:14:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net writes:



 



Just got back from a post-maintenance test flight  after my periodic 50 hr 

inspection/requirements (oil chg/filter/Jab head  torque check/valve 

clearance check/prop bolt torque check, visual inspections,  etc) and nose bungee 

replacement.

 

Some comments on the NTSB Report:

 

Flutter may have had some impact on the XLs, but  I believe that the light 

stick forces are more likely to have caused any wing  removals. Today while 

pulling a measured 2gs (as shown on my EFIS) the stick  was still light and 

the g forces in the semi reclining mode with my arm on my  leg did not give 

the same feeling as sitting up in a Cessna with my arm  extended.

 

No complaints about stick forces by me - I  like the light stick on the XL

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

--I've had it with you. Put up or SHUT THE FUCK UP!



THANK YOU JAY!

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

I'm not at all sure that it is just Jay who needs to edit or tone down 

comments. Hiding innappropriate language under a scramble of puncuation 

doesn't change the language. Juan's Horse S#$!(at)T.is no better and his very 

plain accusation that a federal agency is laying down and doing the bidding 

of a single crazed engineer is a little far fetched. As the report points 

out ten people are dead so far, and Juan's casual dismissal of the fact and 

furthur characterization of it as "their own fault" is far more offensive in 

every respect. Simply demanding that everyone who doubts the design should 

shut up, or sell out and fly something else has done nothing to stop these 

incidents. Perhaps this action will and Juan should be grateful that some 

effort will now be expended to clear the issue up once and for all instead 

of denying or ignoring it.





---

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:34 am Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Jay,

 

 I don't know where you get the idea that the NSB is not lobbied.  Of course they are.  The airline pilots do it all the time.  And I don't know why you think the NTSB doesn't "cry wolf".  Of course they do - all the time.  It is their job.  But that doesn't mean that the FAA has believe everything they say or to do what they recommend.  In fact, they "cry wolf" so often and so vociferously that the FAA tends to minimize their bleatings.  What is NOT their job is to make up stuff to support their position.  That is precisely what they have done in that warning letter. In fact, they made up stuff in the report on my accident.  I should know since I was very involved. 

 

 

   Just get real.  The HTSB is not above outside influence, not infallible nor indisputable.

 

 Jay Bannister

 

   

 

 --

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

First, Jay M.  I think you need to check the definition of Lobby. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

To try to influence (an official) to take a desired action. 	




There is nothing illegal about it and it doesn't indicate any wrong doing. What concerns many of us is that when ZBAG was created their stated goal was to do some third party testing and share this information with Zenith. They didn't start out as a lobbying organization that's just where they ended up. From reading ZBAG it seems that many of their members were upset with the slow pace that Zenith seemed to be taking. Well, I think they are about to find out what slow really means. The FAA is glacial on just about everything and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Further, had ZBAG continued in their original mission and they actually found something and passed this on to Zenith and allowed Zenith time to study the issue I have little doubt that fix would have been forthcoming. Let's look at what Zenith has already done. They found that many aircraft had loose cables and the person with the most knowledge of the airplane believes that is possibly an issue. They also addressed the issue of over controlling the elevator with the down elevator stops. 



Now that the NTSB is involved the FAA will have to rule one way or another. If they go with grounding then there will be additional delay because even if a fix for whatever problem might or might not exist is found then it will have to be vetted by the FAA and as I mentioned they are known to be glacial.

Second, why can't you finish up your CFI-SP? Your aircraft has not been grounded by the only government agency with the power to do so the FAA.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Exactly.



Like in a good marriage, the word divorce is never utter, so to in aviation and particularly homebuilding, the words lawyer, FAA and NTSB are never uttered. It's never even considered as an option. It's not. Period.



Just like an old married couple, they can fight like cats and dogs, divorce doesn't even come up. The listers can go around all they want, the word lawyer or considering utilizing the FAA or NTSB or any government agency should never be considered.



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  First, Jay M.  I think you need to check the definition of Lobby. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

To try to influence (an official) to take a desired action. 	




There is nothing illegal about it and it doesn't indicate any wrong doing. What concerns many of us is that when ZBAG was created their stated goal was to do some third party testing and share this information with Zenith. They didn't start out as a lobbying organization that's just where they ended up. From reading ZBAG it seems that many of their members were upset with the slow pace that Zenith seemed to be taking. Well, I think they are about to find out what slow really means. The FAA is glacial on just about everything and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Further, had ZBAG continued in their original mission and they actually found something and passed this on to Zenith and allowed Zenith time to study the issue I have little doubt that fix would have been forthcoming. Let's look at what Zenith has already done. They found that many aircraft had loose cables and the person with the most knowledge of the airplane believes that is possibly an issue. They also addressed the issue of over controlling the elevator with the down elevator stops. 



Now that the NTSB is involved the FAA will have to rule one way or another. If they go with grounding then there will be additional delay because even if a fix for whatever problem might or might not exist is found then it will have to be vetted by the FAA and as I mentioned they are known to be glacial.

Second, why can't you finish up your CFI-SP? Your aircraft has not been grounded by the only government agency with the power to do so the FAA.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 06:44:38AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that the NTSB is involved the FAA will have to rule one way or

 another. If they go with grounding then there will be additional delay

 because even if a fix for whatever problem might or might not exist is

 found then it will have to be vetted by the FAA and as I mentioned they

 are known to be glacial.


	


The problem with this thinking is that the NTSB was already involved. ZBAG

could either help or stay out of the way and watch them make decisions based

on inadequate information.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Second, why can't you finish up your CFI-SP? Your aircraft has not been

 grounded by the only government agency with the power to do so the FAA.


	


Because the only examiner in Minnesota who can give initial CFI-SP

checkrides refuses to fly in my airplane. That's her call, and I'm not going

to try to twist her arm over it. The rules say that the aircraft has to be

"acceptable to the examiner".



I talked to the Minneapolis FSDO earlier today. They're trying to drum up

someone from Wisconsin, or possibly elsewhere. If they succeed, it becomes a

matter of scheduling, and weather.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

Your argument would seem chicken and egg at first , problem is, in this case, the egg came first. Some dumbass sending info to the NTSB and possibly getting them all grounded is why coming up with a quick fix from the FAA may be needed. Duhh.



Patient: "Doctor, my arm hurts when I move it like this."

Doctor: "Don't move it like that."



 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 06:44:38AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that the NTSB is involved the FAA will have to rule one way or

 another. If they go with grounding then there will be additional delay

 because even if a fix for whatever problem might or might not exist is

 found then it will have to be vetted by the FAA and as I mentioned they

 are known to be glacial.



	


The problem with this thinking is that the NTSB was already involved. ZBAG

could either help or stay out of the way and watch them make decisions based

on inadequate information.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Second, why can't you finish up your CFI-SP? Your aircraft has not been

 grounded by the only government agency with the power to do so the FAA.



	


Because the only examiner in Minnesota who can give initial CFI-SP

checkrides refuses to fly in my airplane. That's her call, and I'm not going

to try to twist her arm over it. The rules say that the aircraft has to be

"acceptable to the examiner".



I talked to the Minneapolis FSDO earlier today. They're trying to drum up

someone from Wisconsin, or possibly elsewhere. If they succeed, it becomes a

matter of scheduling, and weather.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 08:33:29AM -0700, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Your argument would seem chicken and egg at first , problem is, in this

 case, the egg came first. Some dumbass sending info to the NTSB and

 possibly getting them all grounded is why coming up with a quick fix from

 the FAA may be needed. Duhh.


	


Except that you have it backwards.



Then again, considering your demonstrated hostile intentions with regard to

ZBAG, I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that you continue to spread

disinformation and outright lies.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

How can i possibly have it backwards? Two years ago I don't remember a single person on this list from either the FAA or NTSB discussing this with us.



I also recall people at ZBAG feeling like they were pulling teeth trying to get info from NTSB and Zenith about Yuba City etc...so apparently there was some form of 'lobbying' going on.



Again, the point was to get an aeronautical engineer's opinion and then let builders make an more informed decision. That was it. Now if you consider yourself a builder, that's as far as you take it. Period. If you're instead an aviation consumer, like I said on the ZBAG list before being banned for it, go order a kit from Cessna.



 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 08:33:29AM -0700, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Your argument would seem chicken and egg at first , problem is, in this

 case, the egg came first. Some dumbass sending info to the NTSB and

 possibly getting them all grounded is why coming up with a quick fix from

 the FAA may be needed. Duhh.



	


Except that you have it backwards.



Then again, considering your demonstrated hostile intentions with regard to

ZBAG, I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that you continue to spread

disinformation and outright lies.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:13 am Post subject: Re: NTSB recommends grounding of 601XLs in US

 	  jmaynard wrote: 	
		  

The problem with this thinking is that the NTSB was already involved. ZBAG

could either help or stay out of the way and watch them make decisions based

on inadequate information.



	




Yes the NTSB was already involved and they made no mention of flutter other than the lack of any evidence for it in the Yuba City report.



Look, I don't know what the all of the underlying motivations of all the ZBAG members are and neither do you. I do remember when it was started because most of it started right here in this forum and the original intent was not to become a lobbying organization  for the grounding of the aircraft fleet. It was to have a third party look at some things that it was felt Zenith wasn't and then to provide that information to it's members and Zenith. There was never mentioned that the information would be shared with the NTSB. Hell, they aren't even sharing it with none ZBAG participants. I watched as that changed in the ZBAG forum and was made somewhat sick by it.



One nice thing about them giving their report to the NTSB is that it should now be available through the Freedom of Information Act and I have already started the process to file an FOI request. When received I will place the information in a public forum where those who desire can examine it.



This will probably get me banned from reading the ZBAG forum as has already happened with at least one other person that spoke up there but I can live with that.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

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