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ZBAGers to the rescue
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Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Good heavens, Sabrina.



Please publish that message to the list so that every one will know the 

full context and the exact words.



Thank you.



Terry

At 04:45 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing me 

to STALIN.    When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too 

pleased.   This new stuff is going to get to my parents and I may have to 

leave the list... please EDIT your comments, PLEASE...


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing

 me to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased.


	


Parents aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this

person to the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward

the email, please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route

the message took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"

address. It's not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer agents.



Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Ihab

I am the author of the offending message. I'll stand by it. It was sent and 

intended as a private message; oh well, privacy is not what it's cracked up 

to be.

None-the-less, I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish 

that I could post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to which 

I was responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.

You have my express permission to post the message, Sabrina. I encourage 

you to also post your own message, as well. Then everyone can decide for 

themselves just how big SOB I am. Thank you.

Terry

At 05:28 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

 > The guy behind ZBAG wrote me a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing

 > me to STALIN. When I forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased.

Parents aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this

person to the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward

the email, please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route

the message took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"

address. It's not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer agents.

Ihab

Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Okay everybody, the guy you want is TERRY Phillips not me,  Bill Phillips. I'm a good guy, I'll let almost anybody fly my XL and never send  messages to the Government. And there is always an adult beverage cold and  available in my hanger for lubrication of after flight story telling. That awful  Terry is the guy your looking for. Remember that, Bless all who read this, Bill  of Georgia

  In a message dated 4/17/2009 8:59:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ttp44(at)rkymtn.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Terry Phillips    <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>

Ihab

I am the author of the offending    message. I'll stand by it. It was sent and 

intended as a private message;    oh well, privacy is not what it's cracked up 

to be.

None-the-less,    I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish 

that I could    post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to which 

I was    responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.

You have my express    permission to post the message, Sabrina. I encourage 

you to also post your    own message, as well. Then everyone can decide for 

themselves just how big    SOB I am. Thank you.

Terry

At 05:28 PM 4/17/2009 -0700, you    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Sabrina    <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

 > The guy behind ZBAG wrote me    a 3 page e-mail calling me and comparing

 > me to STALIN. When I    forwarded it to my parents they were not too pleased.

Parents    aside, I think that (a) you should feel free to identify this

person to    the list by name; but also (b) should you choose to forward

the email,    please make sure all the mail headers, showing the route

the message    took, are preserved. It is very easy to spoof a "From:"

address. It's    not as easy to spoof a chain of mail transfer    agents.

Ihab

Terry Phillips     ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o ..    o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; waiting on the    wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/   ======================== the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================

 Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!

  [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:41 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 06:57:59PM -0600, Terry Phillips wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   None-the-less, I encourage Sabrina to post my message to the list. I wish 

 that I could post it in context, but I cannot, because the message to which 

 I was responding was deleted from the Matronics archives.


	


Terry, I just looked through the archives, and I believe the message to

which you were responding was addressed to me originally, am I correct? I

have all of the messages on this subject that have passed through the

Matronics Zenith-List and Zenith601-list lists, and the ZBAG list on Yahoo!,

stored on my system.



I was not offended by her message. I read it as a concern for my safety

while flying, and I'll always accept that kind of concern in the spirit in

which it was offered.



There are a few folks on here who will never be convinced that ZBAG's

actions - all of them - were appropriate. The rest of the folks on this list

are at least open to discussion. Please, let's not go hard over the other

way among the ZBAGers.



(I can hear it now: "After the way he's flamed the past day or two, he's the

voice of reason?!" Yeah, I know. Quit snickering, all of you.)



The Nazi rule was cited on here a little while ago, but the same principle

applies to comparisons to Stalin. We can do better.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Jay



I never once mentioned Stalin on this list, or NAZI's for that matter. 

Someone accused me on this list of comparing them to Stalin. I don't think 

I did that, however, I'm happy to let her post the offending message and 

let everyone judge for themselves whether I was out of line in a private 

message. The last thing I intended was to offend the person involved. If 

she was offended, then I'm happy to apologize. However, I am not the one 

who posted something out of context. If my message was inappropriate, then 

I am willing to accept everyone's censure. Have at it. But censure me based 

on what I wrote, not on one word out of context. I was trying to make a 

point, and used the only analogy that came to my mind. It made sense to me 

at the time and several months later it still does.



I do not recall to whom the original message was intended or even the 

subject. While the original message provides the complete context, my 

message was actually in response to something else. Since Sabrina's 

accusation was on the list, I would very appreciate Sabrina posting the 

offending message to the list so that one and all can judge for themselves. 

Is that too much to ask?



This matter has absolutely nothing to do with ZBAG. I will post 

nothing  more on this subject. But if anyone out there has an open mind (or 

not) on this subject, please contact me off line and I will be happy to 

forward my message to you, and you can judge the entire message for yourself.



Terry

At 08:41 PM 4/17/2009 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry, I just looked through the archives, and I believe the message to

which you were responding was addressed to me originally, am I correct? I

have all of the messages on this subject that have passed through the

Matronics Zenith-List and Zenith601-list lists, and the ZBAG list on Yahoo!,

stored on my system.



I was not offended by her message. I read it as a concern for my safety

while flying, and I'll always accept that kind of concern in the spirit in

which it was offered.



There are a few folks on here who will never be convinced that ZBAG's

actions - all of them - were appropriate. The rest of the folks on this list

are at least open to discussion. Please, let's not go hard over the other

way among the ZBAGers.



(I can hear it now: "After the way he's flamed the past day or two, he's the

voice of reason?!" Yeah, I know. Quit snickering, all of you.)



The Nazi rule was cited on here a little while ago, but the same principle

applies to comparisons to Stalin. We can do better


	




Terry Phillips  ZBAGer

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; waiting on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   It made sense to me at the time and several months later it still does.


	


Ok, so this was written several months ago and only discussed now?



In that case, Sabrina: why did you bring it up right now? Does it

pertain to the discussion at hand? Clearly this is a rather tense time

for the group and its participants. If you did not seek recourse back

then, why are you choosing to do so right now?



Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

zenithlist(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Why would ZBAG need to hire engineers to engineer the fix?  ZBAG does not get any money for each 601XL sold.  Zenith does, thus, have the responsibility to provide the fix.  So far I don't see any clue that Zenith is working on one for the US 601XL fleet, do you?

   From: Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:08:09 AM

Subject: Re: ZBAGers to the rescue

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com (chicago2paris(at)msn.com)>

I accept ZBAGÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s apology.  What I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t understand is why ZBAG does not hire this same engineer of theirs to engineer the fix.  Could it be that the true fix is not structural but a skill/judgment  issue?  Even with balanced ailerons there will be guys tearing XL wings off with the stick.  Sure ZBAG could re-engineer the entire airplane to make it fool proof, but it would no longer meet  the LSA weight requirements.

ZBAG--go after the S-LSAs all you want.  I commend you for single handedly setting the wheels in motion that will most likely require extensive flutter testing for all future S-LSA models.  You guys have saved lives, no doubt about it.

But remember that big sign as you enter the cockpit of most of our craft:  EXPERIMENTAL!

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239854#239854

            [quote][b]

ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Hi Sabrina,



On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Sabrina <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Recently ZBAG accused me of not taking this issue seriously.   That was the e-mail

 that was most hurtful.  If they are telling the NTSB that, then I have to defend myself.

 If anything, I am serious.


	


I'm sorry if you were hurt -- I for one have no intentions in that

direction. Also, you as an individual are entitled to your point of

view and are not accountable to the NTSB, so I think you have nothing

to worry about.



 	  Quote: 	
		   ZBAG appears to want the ailerons mass balanced and will not put up with anyone who

 offers alternatives such was oscillation dampening.    If they had GVT data and knew my

 method could not work within a reasonable flight envelope then OK, tell me I am wrong,

 but they just don't know enough to make such accusations.


	


I don't know the details of the exchange in question. I *do* know that

all the control surfaces of which I'm aware in similar GA aircraft are

statically mass balanced. Regarding "oscillation dampening": do you

mean installing a hydraulic damper, for example? This may be possible

but I have not seen it done in a GA-class aircraft before.



Let me make this point though:



I have a Master's degree in mechanical engineering. (Degrees do not

necessarily confer authority, and there are lots of people without

degrees who exceed me in knowledge and experience. But it's just a

shorthand for some cases.)



That said, => I do not consider myself qualified to design an

anti-flutter solution for an aircraft type <= especially for one which

has suspicion of flutter problems leading to loss of life. This is an

exercise in structures and, to some extent, aerodynamics. I know

enough to know that there are lots of messy factors, often accumulated

into design experience, handbooks and rules of thumb, which a

non-specialist like me should not attempt to dismiss. For one thing, I

would not want to introduce a new natural frequency in the system by

designing an insufficiently stiff assembly, and I would not want to

introduce new vibrations due to turbulence around a bluff body that I

put into the airstream.



Others who wish to embark on this design process are making a similar

bet on their knowledge and experience to which they are fully

entitled. This is just how I would make my bet.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The FAA is between a rock and a hard place.   They respect the NTSB but know

 where ZBAG is coming from.


	


The FAA's state of mind (if such a thing can be said of such a large

organization) is not something about which I'm prepared to speculate.

We should remember that the FAA and NTSB have lots of important work

to do and, in the grand scheme of things, one homebuilt airplane type

is not their highest priority.



I'm not sure where ZBAG is coming from except to have done an analysis

and presented the data. Beyond that, I am not prepared to speculate

either.



I have been an engineer, and working with engineers, for 21 years. We

are mostly a curious bunch who, despite our egos, mostly enjoy

learning about new things even if they contradict our own way of

thinking. Work is done by committed people presenting theories, doing

analyses, and converging on a concensus. What I have seen so far has

been consistent with my experience as an engineer.



It is an abject failure of the imagination on anyone's part to assume

that this engineering process is necessarily political; to describe it

in political terms; or to mistake it for anything necessarily distinct

from an iterative search for a better solution or explanation. Sure,

there are politics sometimes, but to jump to that conclusion is to

present an appalling lack of curiosity about the underlying questions.



Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: ZBAGers to the rescue

Has ZBAG said outright that it KNOWS aileron flutter is the issue and that 

is the sole cause of inflight failures? It looks like one of their members 

has formed an opinion, which is no more valuable in the long term than the 

opposite opinion that everything is rosy as-is.



---

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