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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Hi guys,
Please let me respond to several of your comments in one message:
Randy: I agree with you that the controls should be nice and
sensitive. The design flaw the NTSB identified is that as you pull
more Gs it gets easier to increase the load. I like the stick to be
sensitive in normal flight too, but it shouldn't get easier to load
the airframe more as the Gs increase. This is the kind of thing that
would never make it through a part 23 qualification.
Art: I am quite calm now, and I really do think I am making things
better rather than worse. I admit, though, that the only answer from
Matthew that I can find acceptable is that he will issue the design
changes. I don't see any other way my plane can be ungrounded. The
frustrating part for me (today) is that I have no clue how long it
will be before this takes place even though I am quite sure it will
eventually happen.
Roger, I agree with you completely. Matthew is worried about
admitting liability for the design flaw. He knows a law suit is a
waste of time because he is judgement proof. Still, I told him he
can issue the necessary changes without admitting anything except
that the changes were well analyzed for fitting in with the remaining
parts of the plane. He can blame the NTSB for deciding the changes
were needed.
I personally feel the NTSB demand must be met - simply because they
demanded it. I don't think they have proved anything, and I don't
think they have to prove anything. Matthew thinks his judgement
about the cause of the crashes is more important than the NTSB
ruling. From my point of view that is the real problem that keeps my
plane on the ground.
So far, I have no reason to be upset with any of the comments I have
received. The simple fact that I am unhappy about the Heintz
children's approach to this problem is my problem not any body
else's. If only Chris hadn't retired I believe we would have already
reached a reasonable solution to this mess.
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:08 PM 4/21/2009, you wrote:
Quote: | Paul, I couldn't disagree with you more. I happen to love the
sensitive control inputs and I hope the Heintz boys don't change
it. Learn to fly the plane properly and you will love it also.
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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Hi Jay,
I'm not going to respond to most of your flaming because I believe
you indeed have no clue about what is actually happening in the real
world. The NTSB is not an engineering agency -- they are a higher
level government authority than the FAA. The FAA guys I spoke to
today all seemed to agreed with that notion. They also all seemed to
think the mass balancing on the ailerons was absolutely necessary
without any need to cite the NTSB ruling on the same point. It is
not me that thinks that is necessary, it is the government.
I only think the change is necessary because the NTSB says it is
necessary (as do the FAA folks). This is a political statement on my
part not an engineering one.
I only wish I could go back to building as you suggest. Perhaps you
missed the fact that my plane is already completed so I can't do that.
Best regards,
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 07:59 PM 4/21/2009, you wrote:
Quote: | Stay angry with the Heintz brothers and make yourself miserable; or
back off, relax and get back to building and soothe your psyche.
Just make up your mind to wait for this to be resolved in a safe and
reasonable fashion. It WILL be resolved.
Jay Bannister
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hills(at)sunflower.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Ya, I don't know much about flutter, but I do know your wings aren't suppose
to come off while just flying around in the pattern.
Roger
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psm(at)att.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Hi Craig,
Your comment seems well reasoned, and I agree with it on the
surface. The problem is that the NTSB and the consulting engineers
are not looking at the same information at all -- nor should
they. The engineers are looking at the design of the XL by studying
the drawings and sample planes. Their purpose is to find design
flaws if there are some to be found. The NTSB looks at accident
investigation results and makes their decisions on that basis. While
these seem to be the same thing they are not. Perhaps they could be
described as opposite sides of the same coin.
Since these two groups are using different data and different
reasoning it seems quite likely they will reach different overall
conclusions. I feel we must respect the NTSB rulings even if the
engineering points we are aware of don't support those rulings.
The NTSB is the unquestioned authority on accident
investigation. While some people feel this is not the case, I do and
so do the folks at the FAA. While they may not have any good proof
to submit to us or the Heintzes, they simply don't have to do
that. Proof of engineering issues is not their domain, accident
investigation and the resulting determinations is their domain.
I am a little bothered by all the folks who point out that the NTSB
investigations have given different results than the actual NTSB
(which is a board of a few very experienced and powerful, very high
ranking people) rulings. The investigators do their part and provide
documentation for the actual board members to consider. The actual
board doesn't work that way. They don't have to convince anybody of
anything. Their role is to provide judgement and rule on the
issues. Perhaps this is like Supreme Court judgements. People can
whine about Supreme Court decisions all they want, but those
decisions are still the law of the land.
Best regards,
Paul
XL grounded
do not archive
At 08:04 PM 4/21/2009, you wrote:
Quote: | Zenith should be able to take the results from the outside engineering firms
(which probably includes the active vibration testing being done in Germany
and shown in the YouTube video) to the NTSB and the FAA. Then somebody (or
everybody) may shift their position. If the whole of the outside testing is
made public then it can be peer reviewed and/or enlightened amateurs (like
us) can make our own decisions (assuming the FAA doesn't preempt us). Based
on what I saw in the video there is going to be more vibration data
available on the XL than any other LSA.
The worrisome outcome is if the outside engineering investigations don't
offer any new recommendations. Then we are back to where we are now with a
high percentage of unexplained crashes and no way forward (unless you
believe flutter explains all).
-- Craig
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craig(at)craigandjean.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Based on what I saw in the NTSB letter they considered more than just the
accident reports. They also considered reports from the Matronics lists and
ZBAG (including ZBAGs outside engineer). This would indicate they are open
to multiple sources of information including outside engineering studies.
Quote: | From what Doug Norman posted on the Zenith.aero web site reporting on
Zenith's SnF forum the Heintz brothers said this about one of their outside
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engineers: "The California engineer was asserted to be held in high regard
by the FAA and the NTSB (who have apparently worked with this person on
other investigations - especially flutter-related)"
And of course the NTSB *may* be "authoritative" but they have no authority.
The FAA has the authority and has rejects NTSB recommendations many times.
-- Craig
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Can some body tell me what a ZBAG is? Is it some foreign group who do not like Zenith aircraft or what?
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/21/2009 10:03:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:
[quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Based on what I saw in the NTSB letter they considered more than just the
accident reports. They also considered reports from the Matronics lists and
ZBAG (including ZBAGs outside engineer). This would indicate they are open
to multiple sources of information including outside engineering studies.
Quote: | From what Doug Norman posted on the Zenith.aero web site reporting on
Zenith's SnF forum the Heintz brothers said this about one of their outside
|
engineers: "The California engineer was asserted to be held in high regard
by the FAA and the NTSB (who have apparently worked with this person on
other investigations - especially flutter-related)"
And of course the NTSB *may* be "authoritative" but they have no authority.
The FAA has the authority and has rejects NTSB recommendations many times.
-- Craig
--
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craig(at)craigandjean.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Zenith Builders Analysis Group. They spun off their own group a while ago to do an independent engineering analysis of the XL and the crashes. They agreed to keep their conclusions confidential within the group but also (apparently) pass data on to government bodies. Membership is open to anyone (I think) who (a) has an official set of XL plans from Zenith, (b) agrees to follow the confidentiality rules and (c) contribute to pay for outside consultants. They had an (unnamed) retired engineer do some analysis on the XL. Some of their members has publicly stated that flutter was the cause of all of the unexplained XL accidents. This is all from my memory. As there are plenty of ZBAG members on this list (and one ex-member I believe) they can correct anything I have remembered wrong.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:14 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to...
Can some body tell me what a ZBAG is? Is it some foreign group who do not like Zenith aircraft or what?
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/21/2009 10:03:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:
[quote]
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Based on what I saw in the NTSB letter they considered more than just the
accident reports. They also considered reports from the Matronics lists and
ZBAG (including ZBAGs outside engineer). This would indicate they are open
to multiple sources of information including outside engineering studies.
>From what Doug Norman posted on the Zenith.aero web site reporting on
Zenith's SnF forum the Heintz brothers said this about one of their outside
engineers: "The California engineer was asserted to be held in high regard
by the FAA and the NTSB (who have apparently worked with this person on
other investigations - especially flutter-related)"
And of course the NTSB *may* be "authoritative" but they have no authority.
The FAA has the authority and has rejects NTSB recommendations many times.
-- Craig
--
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n4546v(at)mindspring.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Do Not Archive
"Since the NTSB screamed we need aileron mass balancing we need aileron mass
balancing."
The above statement has prompted me to leave the sidelines and comment. As
a 701 Builder, I have no personal stake in 601 issues other than how they
affect aviation generally.
Blindly following the NTSB or the FAA in all things is a fool's errand.
They are often wrong.
My experience is with "V" tailed Bonanzas, which are subject to endless ADs
regarding the tails, many of the issues dealing with "flutter".
I own a first model, second year production Bonzana. A 1948 model 35 Serial
No. D-1373.
Bonanzas have "ruddervators" that do the job of both rudders and elevators.
They are operated by pushrods which are hollow steel tubes.
An AD was issued to address the possiblility that the steel tube could
retain water and rust through from the inside. It required sealing the tube
so water couldn't penetrate and then protecting the tube from further
corrosion.
In this sequence, part of the AD had you:
1. Coat the outside of the tube with Corrosion resisting compound (say
grease).
2. After doing the above, paint the ends of the tube bright orange to
visually show the AD had been accomplished.
So you were supposed to paint over grease according to the FAA.
Everyone who read the AD in the field immediately saw how riduculous this
was.
But this process was originated and made it through FAA's engineering,
review, editing, proofreading, publishing and distribution levels and was
never detected.
No one in their entire system went through the AD step by step to picture
what they were asking for.
As screaming from the field poured in, the FAA immediately issued a
"revised" process for accomplishing the AD.
Guess what? They agreed one should paint the tubes BEFORE the grease was
applied to the outside.
This is a small example but if you want more horror stories, I can provide
them.
I believe they have good intentions, but don't tell me they are to be
blindly followed and Pilots and A/C owners are to check their common sense
at the door.
Best Regards,
Randy, Las Vegas
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JohnDRead(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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Sounds to me as if they are a bunch of interfering busybodies with an axe to grind about Zenith airplanes. do not archive.
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/21/2009 10:35:17 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:
[quote]
Zenith Builders Analysis Group. They spun off their own group a while ago to do an independent engineering analysis of the XL and the crashes. They agreed to keep their conclusions confidential within the group but also (apparently) pass data on to government bodies. Membership is open to anyone (I think) who (a) has an official set of XL plans from Zenith, (b) agrees to follow the confidentiality rules and (c) contribute to pay for outside consultants. They had an (unnamed) retired engineer do some analysis on the XL. Some of their members has publicly stated that flutter was the cause of all of the unexplained XL accidents. This is all from my memory. As there are plenty of ZBAG members on this list (and one ex-member I believe) they can correct anything I have remembered wrong.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:14 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to...
Can some body tell me what a ZBAG is? Is it some foreign group who do not like Zenith aircraft or what?
John Read
CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 4/21/2009 10:03:00 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, craig(at)craigandjean.com writes:
[quote]
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig(at)craigandjean.com>
Based on what I saw in the NTSB letter they considered more than just the
accident reports. They also considered reports from the Matronics lists and
ZBAG (including ZBAGs outside engineer). This would indicate they are open
to multiple sources of information including outside engineering studies.
Quote: | From what Doug Norman posted on the Zenith.aero web site reporting on
Zenith's SnF forum the Heintz brothers said this about one of their outside
|
engineers: "The California engineer was asserted to be held in high regard
by the FAA and the NTSB (who have apparently worked with this person on
other investigations - especially flutter-related)"
And of course the NTSB *may* be "authoritative" but they have no authority.
The FAA has the authority and has rejects NTSB recommendations many times.
-- Craig
--
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d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico Guest
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: Report no. 2 from Sun n Fun - The Heintz clan reactions to |
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I think they like Zenith aircraft well enough, they all own one. They are simply trying to determine why incidents of in flight structural failures appear occurring at an unusual rate on XL aircraft. So far I don't think they have found anything. I applaud their efforts in general, in looks like this airframe is getting a lot of attention over it, if it comes back that nothing has been found and no changes are required it seems to me that a person can have a fair amount of confidence about this aircraft. If it comes out that a design change is required then it's good to know that also. In terms of safety, interfering busybodies are a irritant and a nuisance no question. If it keeps you or your family from injury, maybe being irritated and bothered is not too high a price.
[quote] ---
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