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Lets all get a grip here........

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lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list over the 601XL issues.



I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue, choose to  resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal attacks, that I have had to wade through here.



For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this list SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT! 



Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagine. The honorable man would never show his face here again.



This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz family the target of anger.  We need communication and discussion.  The encounter that someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away from a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has approached them in that manner?



I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than $55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being ready for inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.



I want to fly safe.  If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to fix it. The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if a problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on theory and find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft builders and adapt another aircraft's solution to your own. 



PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY      Take some.



Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of them have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design experience.  If you feel that the design is deficient then take the responsibility to do something about it.  If you don't feel comfortable about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider your decision to build an experimental aircraft.



If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additional engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary??? 



What will you do????



The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the side of caution here.  Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it. You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.



For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as your options are limited by the rules and regs.  We the builders have more options and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the fleet's back and move on.



I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has the best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results of the report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in this round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get some closure to this issue.



And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please keep us informed as to its status.

Larry Whitlow

Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)

Jabiru 3300



Flying later this summer  COUNT ON IT!

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Hello Larry,

  

 Congratulations!   Poeple thinking like you, are the only ones that can preserve freedom of flying (Worldwide).   Self responsible people, is what is needed.   

 All the others will get in the next future, the little freedom that the lawyers and some goverment hot shots will left to them...  Univeral History will not let me lie.

  

 There are several fiction films of overegulated "nations of the future" that might make all of Think.

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower.

 Do not archive



--- On Tue, 4/21/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>

Subject: Lets all get a grip here........

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 11:21 PM



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith-List message posted by: "lwhitlow"

<ldwhitlow(at)comcast.net>



I am astounded with all of the nonsense that has cropped up on this list over

the 601XL issues.



I cannot believe that adults, when faced with a challenging issue, choose to 

resort to the hysteria, name calling, snippy remarks and personal attacks, that

I have had to wade through here.



For someone to, in written form, attack a young girl is just so unspeakably

wrong. Please note that among all of the contributions she has made to this list

SHE ALSO SHARES THE JOY OF FLIGHT! 



Whoever you are sir, you have earned a level of shame that I can only imagine.

The honorable man would never show his face here again.



This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz family

the target of anger.  We need communication and discussion.  The encounter that

someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts us further away from

a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk to anyone who has approached

them in that manner?



I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than

$55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being ready for

inspection. All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the

reputation of the airplane than the NTSB letter.



I want to fly safe.  If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to fix it.

The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a remedy if a

problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a book on theory and

find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with other aircraft builders and

adapt another aircraft's solution to your own. 



PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY      Take some.



Remember this is an EXPERIMENTAL AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT. A large number of them

have been designed and built by people with no formal aircraft design

experience.  If you feel that the design is deficient then take the

responsibility to do something about it.  If you don't feel comfortable

about doing that, then I respectfully submit that you should reconsider your

decision to build an experimental aircraft.



If it is your choice to wait until a fix is issued, what if the additional

engineering Zenith is undertaking shows none is necessary??? 



What will you do????



The NTSB has made errors in the past. They might just be erring on the side of

caution here.  Quite simply if you don't trust the machine don't fly it.

You the builder / pilot bear the final responsibility.



For those of you who own a factory SLSA version, I do feel for you, as your

options are limited by the rules and regs.  We the builders have more options

and we should use them more wisely so we can get this monkey off of the

fleet's back and move on.



I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an

engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has the

best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the results of the

report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected by Zenith in this

round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results and we could get some

closure to this issue.



And by all means whoever filed the FOIA request with the NTSB, please keep us

informed as to its status.

Larry Whitlow

Zenith 601XL N69102 (Reserved)

Jabiru 3300



Flying later this summer  COUNT ON IT!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=240621#240621





	
	


         [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 08:21:47PM -0700, lwhitlow wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This issue will not be solved by making the Zenith staff or the Heintz

 family the target of anger.  We need communication and discussion.  The

 encounter that someone had with the Heintz family at Sun and Fun just puts

 us further away from a solution. Why would anyone at Zenith want to talk

 to anyone who has approached them in that manner?


	


Indeed. That's why I think Paul's approach is counterproductive, and why I

haven't been leaning on AMD. It's in their best interest to see the issue

resolved as quickly as possible; I'm not going to make that go any faster by

pestering them.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have just as much at stake here as the next fellow. I've got more than

 $55,000 invested in my 601XL and am only a few months away from being

 ready for inspection.


	


Regardless of how much money we have invested (and, FWIW, I've got about 2.5

times that in mine), it's about something infinitely more valuable: our

lives, and those of our loved ones. If there's a serious problem, are we

playing Russian roulette every time we pull the stick back? If I seriously

thought the risk was more than minimal, I wouldn't fly mine again either.

OTOH, I could be wrong. You pays your money and you takes your chance.



 	  Quote: 	
		   All of this noise and hysteria is doing far more damage to the reputation

 of the airplane than the NTSB letter.


	


To this, I have to disagree in the strongest terms. Before the NTSB made its

recommendations, the issue was not well known. Now, every pilot who follows

the news, and lots of other people, know about it. The problem is not

insurmountabe - as long as either a fix is found and implemented or else

it's conclusively demonstrated that no fix is needed, bu real, hard data

backing up sound engineering studies. Other aircraft have had similar

issues, and they've all surmounted them.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I want to fly safe.  If there is an issue with the 601XL then I want to

 fix it. The Heintz family is the obvious choice to design and issue a

 remedy if a problem is found, but they are not the only source. Grab a

 book on theory and find the answer yourself. Discuss the problem with

 other aircraft builders and adapt another aircraft's solution to your own.


	


This is great for the builder, but doesn't do me a damned bit of good as an

SLSA owner.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I think that since a governmental agency has referenced results from an

 engineering report produced by the ZBAG group, If the ZBAG group truly has

 the best interests of the airplane at heart, they should release the

 results of the report referenced by the NTSB. That way the data collected

 by Zenith in this round of testing could be compared to the ZBAG results

 and we could get some closure to this issue.


	


I've made this argument. The engineers who have writen the ZBAG reports have

declined to have them released, both because they are preliminary in nature

and because they contain proprietary data that they obtained under a

nondisclosure agreement. I think ZBAG needs to release as much as it can

publicly, just to alleviate the hate and discontent that some members of the

Zodiac community have flung its way. As Ben Franklin said, "If we do not

hang together, we shall most assuredly all hang separately."

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI      http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Pirep three:

  

 Just got in from a three hour flight my my  601XL.

 Only issue was I had to adjust the fuel cap because  it leaked at 130MPH.

 I tried my best to induce aileron  flutter.

 Tried it at many speeds and NOTHING.

 Nothing but a stable aileron.

 I tried tapping on the stick to get a reaction from  the control.  I watch the ailerons extreamly close.  Nothing....

 My cables were check last night and were 36  pounds.  

  

 Steve Weston

 Test Pilot

 N 9554 Z

 Zenith 601 XL

 6.5 hours and having fun, but also watching out the  canopy....

 [quote]   ---

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w



Do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  	
Rediscover Hotmail®: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox.  Check it out.

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't know what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is about.

 

 Do not archive.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Steve:

  

 Just as a point of information:   Some years  ago a professional test pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA  chapter.  He had been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper  twin, following some mod or other.  A movie of the panel was being shot as  the tests went on.  As he stabilized at the speed for his next test point  he once again "pulsed" the yoke.  The airplane fluttered and  disintegrated within three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at  16 frames a second.  He escaped by parachute.  A few years later he  died, doing a similar test.

  

 My point is this:  If you find flutter you may not have  time to arrest it and you may not live to report it, especially if you  aren't equipped to escape what's left of the airplane.  I'd leave it to  people who are paid to look for it.

  

 George

  

 Do not archive

  

 ---

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Steve  

   

Are you suggesting we all wear parachutes until this thing gets figured out?  

   

Roger  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford

 Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:11 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lets all get a grip here........  

  

     

Steve:  

    

   

    

Just as a point of information:   Some years ago a professional test pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter.  He had been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod or other.  A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on.  As he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again "pulsed" the yoke.  The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a second.  He escaped by parachute.  A few years later he died, doing a similar test.  

    

   

    

My point is this:  If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped to escape what's left of the airplane.  I'd leave it to people who are paid to look for it.  

    

   

    

George  

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

   

    

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

I never leave home without  it.............

  

  

 [quote]   ---

grs-pms(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Roger:

  

 In case you intended that response for me, rather  than instead of Steve, I just meant to point out that finding flutter can  be a once in a lifetime experience.  While all this mess is unresolved it  would be safest to fly conservatively, and avoid twisting the dragon's  tail.

  

 George

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Even those of us born in the 50â€™s know about gas rationing in WW2. And 4F was used in the draft after WW2.  

   

-- Craig  

   

Do not archive  

     

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jaybannist(at)cs.com

 Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:28 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lets all get a grip here........  

  

     

I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't know what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is about.

 

 Do not archive.  

    

   

    

   

  

--

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Not sure who you were replying to, but tempting the  beast might not be the best idea. I know little about aerodynamic flutter but  the videos available make me think that if it strikes, you are lucky if you have  time to correct. 

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFZNrTYp3k

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7c0XgfqKE

  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D7YCCLGu5Y

  

  

 [quote]   ---

greg(at)gas-n-go.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:59 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

George,  

This is the best point I have read on this site for months, leave it to the experts.  

     

Regards,  

   

   

   

Greg Cox  

  

Sydney, Australia      

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Swinford

 Sent: Thursday, 23 April 2009 8:11 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lets all get a grip here........  

  

  

     

Steve:  

    

   

    

Just as a point of information:   Some years ago a professional test pilot was describing some of his experiences to our EAA chapter.  He had been doing a series of flutter tests on a Piper twin, following some mod or other.  A movie of the panel was being shot as the tests went on.  As he stabilized at the speed for his next test point he once again "pulsed" the yoke.  The airplane fluttered and disintegrated within three or four frames of the 16mm film, which was running at 16 frames a second.  He escaped by parachute.  A few years later he died, doing a similar test.  

    

   

    

My point is this:  If you find flutter you may not have time to arrest it and you may not live to report it, especially if you aren't equipped to escape what's left of the airplane.  I'd leave it to people who are paid to look for it.  

    

   

    

George  

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

   

    

---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Thanks George.

 This aint my first rodeo but I ll sure be  careful...

  

 SW

 [quote]   ---

hills(at)sunflower.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:33 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

I think I just crapped my pants on that last video….  

         

  

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave

 Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 6:38 PM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lets all get a grip here........  

  

     

Not sure who you were replying to, but tempting the beast might not be the best idea. I know little about aerodynamic flutter but the videos available make me think that if it strikes, you are lucky if you have time to correct.   

    

   

    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTFZNrTYp3k  

    

   

    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU7c0XgfqKE  

    

   

    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D7YCCLGu5Y  

    

   

    

   

  [quote]    

---

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Sincerely I dont know, but will like to know,  saw that cartoon lots of times as a kid (translated to spanish, of course).

  

 Saludos

 Gary Gower

 do not archive.



--- On Wed, 4/22/09, jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com> wrote:



 [quote]From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>

Subject: Re: Lets all get a grip here........

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 5:28 PM



  I think I saw this one when it first came out. Bet a lot of you don't know what the "4F" on Bugs' heart means or what an "A" ration sticker is about.



Do not archive.



 



 



--

4RCSIMMONS(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: Lets all get a grip here........

Finally,



Someone on this list said something worth while!



You know, he who talks most knows less than most listening!



Rich

601 XL

Frustrated

Wanting to buy my engine but . . .

patiently waiting!



[quote][b]           I think I found the real cause of the inflight breakups-gremlins: http://ww      w.youtube.com/watch?v=D1xqrdtJs8w            Do not archive[/b][b]

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