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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Yes Quiet.

  

 I have flown in Kolb MKIIIs with a Rotax 503, 582,  912(80hp), 912 (100hp), Jabiru and my VW. The two stroke Rotaxs were open  out the back and my ears are still ringing from them. The overworked air-cooled  503 was far and away the worst on my ears. Fat Albert with the 80hp Rotax,  open cockpit was also noisy and its high RPM engine just gets to you more. John  H. has the 912 100HP and it was the most quiet. It is likely that his big fuel  tank between the engine and your ears tends to dampen the vibration/noise. My  current VW is somewhere close to a open cockpit 912 but the lower frequency is  easer to deal with. My VW high mount that had real soft vibration  dampers and it was the most quiet MKIII I have ever flown in. The  Jabiru has a much slower turning engine even slower than my VW and it would  appear that the vibration dampers were well tuned to stop quite a bit of the  noise producing vibrations. The lower frequency noises produced by the Jabiru  are also much easer to filer out with available ANR headsets. It is a airplane  and noise is a normal condition so yes the Jabiru is a close runner up for the  most quiet Kolb MKIII.

  

 I have been looking for softer vibration  dampers (bushing) for my VW but haven't found anything yet. This  appears to be the most noticeable element in a quiet cockpit. It also reduces  the stress on the airframe.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

zeprep251(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Rick,

     You know how sensitive the squelch was on the intercom? Well after talking to David Clark,I was informed that there is a mic gain control on these old headsets.After removing the foam mic cover

 

   the adjusting screw was visible .A half turn made so much difference I couldn't believe it.Even take off power can't trip the vox and the cockpit com is much improved.I'm a happy camper!These headsets are 29 years old!

      You are gonna take some heat on that Quiet claim,but thanks for the effort!

                           G.Aman MK-C Jabiru 2200, now comfortably in touch with the right seat!

 

              

 

 --

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru Powered MKIII

What???  Am I reading this right??? lol   What about the JABIRU??



chris ambrose

M3X-Jabiru

N327CS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

The lower frequency noises produced by the Jabiru  are also much easer to filer out with available ANR  headsets.>>

  

 Hi,

 thanks for the input but its not the noise in the  cockpit , it is the noise outside which is the problem.

 Noise problems are probably more important in  Europe than they are in the US. All microlights have to pass a noise test and  have a certificate issued and the Kolb, and my old Challenger with the  503,  only just squeaked in.

  

 Most complaints from groups trying to get airfields  closed, and there are a lot of them, are based on the noise factor.

 Were it not for the fact that I have been flying  from the same field for 20 years I am sure that the farmer who owns it would  have asked me to move out. I never do circuits. Fire up and fly away  is  the rule.

  

 I would love to have enough spare weight allowance  to cowl the engine completely.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:23 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Pat,

   I think your observations on pushers being louder is obviously accurate.The Lake amphibian,the Seabee and and the Cessna 337 can all be identified by a blindfolded librarian at 5 miles range.

          G.Aman,still happy about the com.

 

   

 

   

 

 --

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:26 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Well Chris,we get our 15 minutes of fame! Are you happy with the Jab?

 

    G.Aman

 

   

 

 --

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

PatDoes your  'spare weight allowance'  refer to empty wt.  or gross wt?

Russ

do not archive

On Apr 30, 2009, at 8:20 AM, zeprep251(at)aol.com (zeprep251(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote] Pat,

   I think your observations on pushers being louder is obviously accurate.The Lake amphibian,the Seabee and and the Cessna 337 can all be identified by a blindfolded librarian at 5 miles range.

          G.Aman,still happy about the com.

 

  

 

  

 

 --

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Pat & Chris



You need to get out more. Yes our Kolbs are all noisy but in comparison, 

Gary's was a bit quieter than some other Kolbs. Seems like Gary has a 

barrier right behind the cockpit and his Senrich prop must also help.



Again I'm talking about inside the cockpit. If there were thousands of 

planes circling a island all the time I'm sure we would introduce noise 

limits too.



As for performance I flew with and watched John W's Jabiru powered Kolbra 

fly in and out of a short strip in Michigan's UP. It was noisy and very 

under powered, very scary. I know there is 5 more HP in the newer model 

Jabirus but that doesn't explain the improvement I have seen in two newer 

Jabiru powered MKIIIs. Not 912 level performance but good. The only thing I 

can think of is the prop. Now this going to piss the Warp Drive guys off but 

it has to be the low performance of the WD prop that John W was using. Sure 

do miss John Williamson.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru Powered MKIII

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Pat & Chris



You need to get out more. Yes our Kolbs are all noisy but in comparison, 

Gary's was a bit quieter than some other Kolbs. Seems like Gary has a 

barrier right behind the cockpit and his Senrich prop must also help.



Again I'm talking about inside the cockpit. If there were thousands of 

planes circling a island all the time I'm sure we would introduce noise 

limits too.



As for performance I flew with and watched John W's Jabiru powered Kolbra 

fly in and out of a short strip in Michigan's UP. It was noisy and very 

under powered, very scary. I know there is 5 more HP in the newer model 

Jabirus but that doesn't explain the improvement I have seen in two newer 

Jabiru powered MKIIIs. Not 912 level performance but good. The only thing I 

can think of is the prop. Now this going to piss the Warp Drive guys off but 

it has to be the low performance of the WD prop that John W was using. Sure 

do miss John Williamson.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



--- 	




I'd be more inclined to think it was the lower diameter myself. I think the typical prop diameter for the jab is 60" or perhaps even less, definitely not a good climb configuration for the flight characteristics of the Kolb. 



Despite the vibration problems I'm having with my WD, the performance is nothing short of spectacular. And the WD worked really well on my FS II also.



Too bad the jab doesn't have a good gear reduction, a-la the old continental GO-300. It'd be a monster of a motor for slower climbers I'd be willing to bet.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Lucien



It is tip speed, turbulence and a bit of black art of prop design that 

determines how much HP is turned into noise. The Jabiru turns its prop at a 

higher RPM so it has to turn a smaller diameter prop to keep its tip speed 

down. My direct drive VW with a 60" prop would go supersonic at the prop 

tips in a heart beat and noise that would wake the dead.



Yes I know your WD is spectacular but you might be surprised just how much 

better performance could be had with a more efficient prop. You have so much 

extra power with your redrive Rotax that you can be real happy with lower 

prop efficiency.



Redrives in airplanes when done right are wonderful. The continental engine 

probably did more to hurt the reputation of redrives than anything. Redrives 

aren't just great for the slower airplane group. The RR Merlin, and most of 

the big radial engines in WWII airplanes had redrives and they were not what 

I would call slow airplanes



This is a good rainy day discussion.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Now this going to piss the Warp Drive guys off but

 	  Quote: 	
		   it has to be the low performance of the WD prop that John W was using. 

 Sure do miss John Williamson.



 Rick Neilsen


	


Rick:



Me too.



John W had to use a very tiny two blade prop with the Jab powered Kolbra. 

When he installed the 912ULS, he also added a 68" 3 blade fast taper prop.



I have said many times before.  Cruise speed with John W's Jab was about the 

same as my mkIII with 912ULS.  However, there was absolutely no comparison 

between take off and climb between our two airplanes.  Took John W forever 

to get off the ground and get some altitude.



All that changes when John W upgraded to a 912ULS.  He out climbed and out 

ran me bad.....



john h

mkIII - Ready to fuel up, load, and head West.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru Powered MKIII

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Lucien



It is tip speed, turbulence and a bit of black art of prop design that 

determines how much HP is turned into noise. The Jabiru turns its prop at a 

higher RPM so it has to turn a smaller diameter prop to keep its tip speed 

down. My direct drive VW with a 60" prop would go supersonic at the prop 

tips in a heart beat and noise that would wake the dead.



Yes I know your WD is spectacular but you might be surprised just how much 

better performance could be had with a more efficient prop. You have so much 

extra power with your redrive Rotax that you can be real happy with lower 

prop efficiency.



Redrives in airplanes when done right are wonderful. The continental engine 

probably did more to hurt the reputation of redrives than anything. Redrives 

aren't just great for the slower airplane group. The RR Merlin, and most of 

the big radial engines in WWII airplanes had redrives and they were not what 

I would call slow airplanes



This is a good rainy day discussion.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



--- 	




Well next week I'll be fitting the strongest pusher on the market to my plane (powerfin F model) in an effort to debug (hopefully fix) my harmonics problem with non-IVO props. So I'm expecting the "up" to be very good, tho I'm guessing (and expecting) it won't do as well in the "forward" department (if it runs smooth, I won't care).



But yes the WD is a compromise. It has the widest speed range you can get in a fix pitch so sure it has less thrust at very low speed regimes. But it really works well overall performance-wise.



When operated right, the geared continental is a fine engine that pulls the 170 and 175 around real well. Back in TX, one of the locals had a 175 with that motor in it. It was lugged a lot like most of them and had to be given a top somewhere midway to TBO. But after that, once she learnt how to run it (spin it up to the 3200 rpm range), it gave her no trouble and the performance of the plane was fine. But you're right it got a bad rap because of poor training in its use.



I appreciate the Jab's simplicity with the direct drive for sure, but with a redrive it'd compete pretty well with the 912 series as far as performance on a wider array of planes, IMO. The 3300 would just be a monster........



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

> Yes I know your WD is spectacular but you might be surprised just how 

much

 	  Quote: 	
		   better performance could be had with a more efficient prop. You have so 

 much extra power with your redrive Rotax that you can be real happy with 

 lower prop efficiency.



 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Neilsen


	




How did you come up with this earth shattering bit of info.



I am devastated, having flown so many hours with an inefficient prop.



Guess the other wooden props I flew with were even more inefficient.



Damn, you have ruined my day.  How will I ever fly to MV with a WD.



Last year at the Kolb Homecoming, Steven Green challenged me to a flat out 

top speed race.  We started side by side and stayed that way until I 

eventually went full throttle and left Steven, his mkIII, his 912ULS, and 

his big Ivo two blade prop.



Still looking for something better, but haven't found it yet.



Wonderful blue bird afternoon at hauck's holler, alabama.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

John



Really didn't want to ruin your day but I know you are just joking.



The first bit of info came from Steve Bennet at Great Plains Aircraft. He 

did a apples to apples comparison test as close as he could with Warp Drive, 

PowerFin, and IVO props. The IVO gave the least thrust, then Warp Drive, 

then PowerFin giving the most.



The second comes from my not to scientific observations of Warp Drive and 

Senrich props on Jabiru powered Kolbs. The performance is considerably 

better than John W got with his Kolbra and that 5 extra HP wouldn't account 

for all of it. Again a redrive on a Jabiru would help a bunch more.



I also know first hand that wood props can be turned into real expensive 

tooth picks. It is also worth knowing that you can put objects through the 

prop and still fly home.



Have a great safe flight.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Well, If you expect anything to go thru the Powerfin & still fly  home-good luck [not saying anything about performance].

  

 Howard  Shackleford

FS II

SC   

  In a message dated 4/30/2009 4:03:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I also    know first hand that wood props can be turned into real expensive 

tooth    picks. It is also worth knowing that you can put objects through the 

prop    and still fly  home.



	




 Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

  [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Howard

  

 I had a 9/16 X 2.5 in bolt go through my PowerFin and it got me the  remaining 400 miles home. I had the damaged blade at the  Kolb Homecoming a few years ago. In all honesty it hit mid span and did put  a big ding in the blade so I guess I had your "good luck".

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

> The first bit of info came from Steve Bennet at Great Plains Aircraft. He

 	  Quote: 	
		   did a apples to apples comparison test as close as he could with Warp 

 Drive, PowerFin, and IVO props. The IVO gave the least thrust, then Warp 

 Drive, then PowerFin giving the most.



 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Rick Neilsen


	




I wouldn't bet all my apples on a "static" test.  It tells only how much 

force is applied to a scale, not what the prop is actually doing in a flying 

situation a a specific airplane.



My WD will pull 5400 rpm static, the way it is set now.  Soon after I start 

my takeoff roll it pulls 100 rpm off the engine.  Probably because the air 

is getting cleaner and it is getting a better bite.  How important is that 

in comparison?  I haven't the slightest idea, but it does it.



I am not an engineer.  I get my info from getting in the air and flying.  ;-



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

We just had a big discussion on the FlyGeo list, to include a fellow that some empirical testing. I personally was not happy with the methodology but his very careful analysis of props and settings concluded that any criticism of major brands is groundless, and if there are any performance issues with props they are a result of nothing more than either pilot technic or proper settings or propeller for the HP. 

That some fellow that has some vested interest in selling props rigged the test to give the results he wanted is not new or news.

rest assured that any of the major props will deliver the same performance and any deviations will be the result of something other than the prop itself.

Now if old Yehoopetz built a prop in his pig barn overnight which performed no better than pig slurry, and then said X-prop was so much better than his 2x4 Bladed Pig Barn Special, I would hold from concluding anything about the excellence of X-prop.

Ron (at) KFHU



==========================================

---- Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> wrote: 



=============




John



Really didn't want to ruin your day but I know you are just joking.



The first bit of info came from Steve Bennet at Great Plains Aircraft. He 

did a apples to apples comparison test as close as he could with Warp Drive, 

PowerFin, and IVO props. The IVO gave the least thrust, then Warp Drive, 

then PowerFin giving the most.



The second comes from my not to scientific observations of Warp Drive and 

Senrich props on Jabiru powered Kolbs. The performance is considerably 

better than John W got with his Kolbra and that 5 extra HP wouldn't account 

for all of it. Again a redrive on a Jabiru would help a bunch more.



I also know first hand that wood props can be turned into real expensive 

tooth picks. It is also worth knowing that you can put objects through the 

prop and still fly home.



Have a great safe flight.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

Its my understanding that the new Jabs have 10 to 15 more hp than John Ws  early model, not 5 more.

 So maybe its not just the props that make a differance.

  

 Dennis Rowe

   [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: Jabiru Powered MKIII

I notice that Culver Props recommends 56 to 62 inch dia props for 

Vw's and Jabiru engines.. This is a big efficiency hit ... Redrive 

those engines and one can likely turn a 68 to 72 inch prop... Herb



At 07:05 PM 4/30/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Its my understanding that the new Jabs have 10 to 15 more hp than 

John Ws early model, not 5 more.

So maybe its not just the props that make a differance.



Dennis Rowe

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