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Notes from Rudder Workshop

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challgren(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Fellow Builders:



I attended the rudder workshop at Zenith in February and found it to  

be a most worthwhile trip.  I picked up my 701 kit and it fit easily  

in the back of my Suburban.  I had been concerned about the 12 foot  

sheets of aluminum listed in the materials list fitting in the  

Suburban but they are rolled up so take very little room.



I asked Nicholas what their annual kit production was at the present  

time.   He indicated they sold about ninety five 701 kits per year  

and slightly more 601 XL kits than that.  He said they have about 50  

employees now which is about the same level as in the past.  Their  

new CNC machine is allowing greater production with the same number  

of employees.



Several of you have wondered if a quick build 701 kit was in the  

offing.  From my experience building a 601 kit starting back in 1997  

I can say that the current 701 kit appears to be a quick build in  

comparison.  A significantly greater number of parts are cut to  

specifications and I will spend much less time fabricating parts for  

the 701 than I did on the 601.



After building the 601 HDS without benefit of the rudder workshop I  

wonder now how that was possible.  Must have had a guardian angel  

over my shoulder who had an A & P.



Question:  We had a wonderful experience with our Jabiru 3300 but I  

plan to use my 701 for Sport Pilot Training.  This will entail much  

more time practicing landings and I am contemplating a Rotax because  

of its water cooling allowing better temperature stability.  The  

Rotax community seems to have no human beings who can respond to your  

problems.  Pete and Andy and all of the people in the Jabiru  

community are almost like family and give great backup to a superior  

product.  Are there humans backing up the Rotax or is it just an  

aloof Austrian company with a Caribbean company providing support and  

whose last web  site update was some time in 2003?



Stan

601 HDS/Jab 3300 built/sold

701 building in progress

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Hi Stan,



First let me apologize for answering a question with a question.



You mention concern about cooling on the Jabiru engine while doing 

landings.  Do you have any information that this is a problem?  Or, 

is this just a theory that it might be a problem?



The reason I ask is that for 30 years I never heard anything about 

problems with overcooling engines, but now this seems to get a lot of 

attention.  I am wondering if this is a real problem that went 

unnoticed for so many years or if it is just some sort of current 

theory about what might happen.



Thanks,



Paul

XL wings

 	  Quote: 	
		    We had a wonderful experience with our Jabiru 3300 but I

plan to use my 701 for Sport Pilot Training.  This will entail much

more time practicing landings and I am contemplating a Rotax because

of its water cooling allowing better temperature stability.  The

Rotax community seems to have no human beings who can respond to your

problems.  Pete and Andy and all of the people in the Jabiru

community are almost like family and give great backup to a superior

product.  Are there humans backing up the Rotax or is it just an

aloof Austrian company with a Caribbean company providing support and

whose last web  site update was some time in 2003?



Stan

601 HDS/Jab 3300 built/sold

701 building in progress

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Stanley-  You are not a CFI with more than 25 hrs in a 601 are you?  (Re 

using the 701 for training.)  I need such a person.  My insurance co wants 

me to get 5 addl hours in a XL with a CFI that has more than 25 hrs in type. 

Jim Pallien in VA is the only one that qualifies and that too far away for 

me.

Al Young

601XL



---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Stan-

    I agree with your assessment of HDS building in spades! If it weren't 

for certain internet "Angels", you could have picked up an HDS kit at my 

local scrapyard a couple of years ago for peanuts. With my condolences!

                                                                             

                                                                        Bill



---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Wow.



That sounds like a pretty hard requirement to meet.  I think there is 

another operation in Arizona or New Mexico that has XL dual offered, 

but there sure aren't many places to get such dual instruction.



I only have two questions for you:



1.  How much flight experience do you have?

2.  Have you considered changing insurance companies?



Paul

XL wings

do not archive





 	  Quote: 	
		  Stanley-  You are not a CFI with more than 25 hrs in a 601 are you?  (Re

using the 701 for training.)  I need such a person.  My insurance co wants

me to get 5 addl hours in a XL with a CFI that has more than 25 hrs in type.

Jim Pallien in VA is the only one that qualifies and that too far away for

me.

Al Young

601X

 >

 >

 >

n7cr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Stanley Challgren said the following on 3/26/2006 11:06 AM:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Question:  We had a wonderful experience with our Jabiru 3300 but I  

 plan to use my 701 for Sport Pilot Training.  This will entail much  

 more time practicing landings and I am contemplating a Rotax because  

 of its water cooling allowing better temperature stability.  The  

 Rotax community seems to have no human beings who can respond to your  

 problems.  Pete and Andy and all of the people in the Jabiru  

 community are almost like family and give great backup to a superior  

 product.  Are there humans backing up the Rotax or is it just an  

 aloof Austrian company with a Caribbean company providing support and  

 whose last web  site update was some time in 2003?


	


I think you need to know who to talk to in the Rotax distributor network to get 

answers. One of the reasons I am going with the 912S in my 701 because we have a 

Rotax Service Center less than 2 hours away: Ronnie Smith at South Mississippi 

Light Aircraft (SMLA) in Lucedale, MS. I'm acquainted with Ronnie and have been 

to his annual fly-in several times.  Every question I've asked of him he's given 

good answers, and knows his stuff with Rotax engines. (I guess I'm sort of 

biased, since Ronnie gave me my introductory lesson in an MSquared Sprint in 

2000...) He's one of those kind of guys who isn't constantly trying to sell you 

anything, but he'll get you whatever you need if you ask.



Remember that Rotax has been serving the Ultralight community for a long time, 

so in that small community, it works on personal relationships rather than mass 

marketing or a web presence. To get good service you'll need to get familiar 

with your local distributor/authorized repair center and at least go meet them 

at the fly-ins or at Sun & Fun/Osh/Copperstate/Arlington, etc.



One other thing - what other engine manufacturer puts their entire service 

manual online for download?



Just my opinion.... fwiw.



Rory



DO NOT ARCHIVE

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Re:  Engine cooling -

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't discount the jabiru simply because you plan to do sport pilot training.  The aircraft used for most flight training are air cooled and have been flown hard with no real problems.  The main thing would make sure that the engine is properly broken in before you start using it for excessive takeoff and landing practice.   As long as you keep it within normal operating limits and don't subject it to frequent "shock" cooling (long descents at low power) you should be OK.  My experience with Lycomings and Continentals is that it doesn't hurt them to push them hard.  The seldom flown, "babied" engines are the ones that don't make it to TBO.



I understand the new Jab has redesigned cylinder fins giving 25% more cooling area in addition to hydraulic lifters.  Good gets better and better.



Tim Juhl

20+ years CFII

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

I'm not sure where you are but here are two possibilities:



http://www.southwestsportsplanes.com/ in Arizona



http://dragonflyaviation.com/contact.html in Northern California.



Both are saying they *will* offer instruction in 601XL'x. Dragonfly said

they would have their plane in March. They are associated with Zenith West

(http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/index.html)



If your insurance company will accept time in a fairly similar LSA consider

where I finished my sport pilot training: St. Charles Flying Service out

side of St. Louis: http://www.stcharlesflyingsvs.com/lightsport.php. They

have two Evektor Sport Stars (http://www.sportaircraftinternational.com/)



Good luck and let us know what you find out. I have a similar problem here

in Utah.



-- Craig



--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

I hope you are right about more XL airplanes being available for dual 

instruction.  I am afraid the guys in California are barking up a 

strange tree thinking they can have professionals build an ELSA 

airplane and then use it for flight instruction.   Perhaps it will 

all work just fine, but I will believe it when I see it.



I hope anyone who can offer dual instruction in an XL will make lots 

of noise on this list so those of us who have been desperately 

looking for it find out.  My understanding is the only way this can 

happen is if  the instructor owns the aircraft or it is a true 

S-LSA.  I know Jim has one such plane available in Virginia, but that 

is a very long way for me to travel.



I asked the experts at EAA about training opportunities in this type 

aircraft, and their only response was that if I found such an 

opportunity to please tell them about it.



I sent specific email inquiries to the two listed places.  I will 

publish any responses I get - if they indicate a real opportunity for 

dual instruction.



Paul

XL wings

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm not sure where you are but here are two possibilities:



http://www.southwestsportsplanes.com/ in Arizona



http://dragonflyaviation.com/contact.html in Northern California.



Both are saying they *will* offer instruction in 601XL'x. Dragonfly said

they would have their plane in March. They are associated with Zenith West

(http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/index.html)

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:04 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Paul-  I've less than 200 hrs and I have nothing but good things to say 

about my insurance company.   Both in price and settling claims.  So I'd not 

consider a new company if I can avoid it.

Regards,

Al

Do Not Archive



---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Hi Al,



Thanks for the reply.



I also have around 200 hours.  I think the 5 hour checkout in the 

Zodiac seems reasonable if you don't consider the very real fact that 

it is nearly impossible to find one for the checkout.  It is 

certainly impossible at this point to find an instructor with 25 hours in type.



In this case the checkout requirement might as well be a 1000 hour 

checkout.  The insurance company might just as well say they won't insure you.



I hope you find a way to meet the requirement.



Best regards,



Paul

At 06:02 AM 3/27/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Paul-  I've less than 200 hrs and I have nothing but good things to say

about my insurance company.   Both in price and settling claims.  So I'd not

consider a new company if I can avoid it.

Regards,

Al


	


---------------------------------------------

Paul Mulwitz

32013 NE Dial Road

Camas, WA 98607

---------------------------------------------

zodie(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

---

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Have you tried AOPA?



Also try Skysmith, whoever he went through would not insure me for the

first hour but covered me after that...I stayed above the airport until

one hour was passed...



Frank

HDS 394 hours 



--

bjohnson(at)satx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

The XL is now being purchased by flight schools in an sLSA version, but it's

the same plane.  I know if at least one that you can rent for instruction,

(the guy posts here every now and again)

http://www.maspl.com/flight_school.htm



It's not the cheapest, it's not convenient to everyone, but it "is"

available....



-Bruce



[quote] --

JAPhillipsGA(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Al, I had the same problem with the requirement for CFI hours in type. I went 

back to the agent, explained it was impossible. He went to the underwriters 

who modified the requirement so that I did the hours in an Alarus (sp) with a 

CFI. Cost me a couple hundred and the hours. Really was absolutely no help at 

all at prep to fly a XL as the plane was a big dog of a beast that would not 

climb and was nibble as an anvil. Engine, controls, view, weight and performance 

was nothing like my XL. The difference between a Pinto station wagon and a 

baby Porsche. Still it satisfied the bean counters and I got my coverage. Maybe 

you could request they reconsider and modify to reality, Bill 

do not archive

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Bill-  I've done just that.  Hoping they will let Roger at the factory be a 

safety pilot with me.  I already have 5 hrs with him and 1.5hrs in my XL. 

This additional hours requirement is not hurting my ego a bit, but they must 

see that it's not an easy task to come up with a CFI with 25 hrs in type. 

I'll let you know how it plays out.  Regards- Al

---

westonjudy(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Al,



I'm a CFI with 185 hours in my 601XL.  However, I too face insurance

hurdles. 



I'm a new CFI. The first thing after getting my CFI ticket last summer was

to contact my insurance agent (EAA Falcon) about using my experimental

amateur built 601XL for transition/familiarization training using the EAA

exemption that allows training in an amateur built for the purpose of

preparing pilot/builders for flying their new aircraft.  They said great, no

problem; until they found out I'm a new CFI.  They want me to have 100 hours

instruction given before I can give transition training in my 601XL.

However, I moved a few weeks after getting my CFI; at the new location I

have not had time to make connections with a new flight school or FBO that

needs a part-time CFI.  So I'm still a 0 hour CFI. 



If you, or anyone, wants to come to Denver, and you have your own plane

(since the insurance company won't let me instruct in mine), then I would be

happy to help. 



One more example of who really regulates general aviation in the US: the

insurance companies.



Weston Walker



601XL/Jabiru 3300



Based at 48V



Time: 11:27:53 AM PST US



From: "Al Young" <armyret(at)mchsi.com>



Subject: Re: Notes from Rudder Workshop






Stanley-  You are not a CFI with more than 25 hrs in a 601 are you?  (Re 



using the 701 for training.)  I need such a person.  My insurance co wants



me to get 5 addl hours in a XL with a CFI that has more than 25 hrs in type.

Jim Pallien in VA is the only one that qualifies and that too far away for



me.



Al Young



601XL

armyret(at)mchsi.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: Notes from Rudder Workshop

Weston-  My XL isn't back together yet.  So I'd need to go with you.  I'd be 

glad to have you instruct me, but I understand about your insurance problem. 

What a visious circle.  If you don't mind, I'll keep your offer in mind and 

maybe I could come to Denver and take you up on it.  I would be glad to sign 

a liability waiver.  My brother lives in Denver and I can fly there free on 

a pass, so I'll contact you later after I hear from my insurance co.

Regards,

Al Young

Do Not Archive



---

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