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Reduce speed in approach

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mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Hello all,

Is there a flap manual command on the three gear?



I search a solution to reduce speed approach by increasing flap position 

on the monowheel.

Do you have an idea?



Builder N° 145



-- 



       --|--

--------(*)-------- 

Michel AUVRAY

mau11(at)free.fr

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Michel,



Do I understand correctly that you wish to reduce the approach speed  

by extending the flaps further than is normally permitted on the  

monowheel?



If so, from my experience, I do not see any simple means by which this  

can be accomplished.



There is an adjustment available in the position of the FL21 "Horn"  

which can be used to allow a bit more flap movement.  See page  

28M-11.  There is also some adjustment available in the "Fork  

Assembly"  (175-601-208) which is installed at both ends of the "Flap  

Push Rod (FL20).  See page 28M-17.  These adjustments could be used to  

proved some limited additional flap extension, but probably at the  

cost of a less than fully retracted flap and some loss of cruise speed  

due to the added drag.  I'm not sure how much approach speed reduction  

could be gained, but I expect it would be minimal.



I guess you could also machine a new, longer, FL19 "Horn Plate" which  

would provide greater movement of the "Flap Push Rod" with further  

extension of the flap.



Personally, I'd not recommend any of these modifications as you are  

treading in new, untested areas of Europa aerodynamics.  Perhaps one  

of the more aerodynamically inclined folks can make a better judgement.



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

Aircraft Flying!

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:16, Michel AUVRAY wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello all,

 Is there a flap manual command on the three gear?



 I search a solution to reduce speed approach by increasing flap  

 position on the monowheel.

 Do you have an idea?



 Builder N° 145



 -- 



      --|--

 --------(*)-------- Michel AUVRAY

 mau11(at)free.fr

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:25 pm Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Hi

 Be very careful in this area   One of the reasons for the current max flap setting is that any speed below your current approach speed would significantly reduce aileron effectiveness  Need I say more

 

 Pete Jeffers

 

   

 

   

 

 --

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:48 am Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Robert Borger wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Michel,



 Do I understand correctly that you wish to reduce the approach speed 

 by extending the flaps further than is normally permitted on the 

 monowheel?



 I



 Personally, I'd not recommend any of these modifications as you are 

 treading in new, untested areas of Europa aerodynamics.  Perhaps one 

 of the more aerodynamically inclined folks can make a better judgement.



 Check six,

 Bob Borger

Bob, Michel
	


Ivan did test 30deg flap deflection but he found that at any lower speed 

control was difficult because the ailerons were not effective.

Don't do it

Graham

david.stanbridge(at)swift
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Michel,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From an aerodynamic perspective then increasing the flap angle will

substantially increase the pitching moment and you will undoubtedly find
	


that you run out of tail authority.



Essentially with an increased pitching moment the horizontal tail needs to

do more work to balance it. At lower speeds it will actually provide less

work and therefore you could find yourself in a very steep descent that

close to the ground will not be recoverable.



My advice would be to stay clear of this.



To slow the aircraft further you could experiment with vortex generators on

the upper surface of the wing which is something that Bud Yerly has been

looking at with some folks in California. With VG's the pitching moment is

not so much impacted but the underpowered horizontal tail is still there.

Then VG's would be needed on the horizontal tail to counter this to prevent

it from stalling. In other words it is not an easy thing to do.

Dave Stanbridge

Europa Aircraft

 

On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:16, Michel AUVRAY wrote: 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hello all, 

 Is there a flap manual command on the three gear? 

 

 I search a solution to reduce speed approach by increasing flap > position

on the monowheel.  ; > 0

mau11(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Graham Singleton a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>



 Robert Borger wrote:

> 

>

> Michel,

>

> Do I understand correctly that you wish to reduce the approach speed 

> by extending the flaps further than is normally permitted on the 

> monowheel?

>

> I

>

> Personally, I'd not recommend any of these modifications as you are 

> treading in new, untested areas of Europa aerodynamics.  Perhaps one 

> of the more aerodynamically inclined folks can make a better judgement.

>

> Check six,

> Bob Borger

 Bob, Michel

 Ivan did test 30deg flap deflection but he found that at any lower 

 speed control was difficult because the ailerons were not effective.

 Don't do it

 Graham

Hello graham;
	


How are you?

My problem is the next.I live near Grenoble now, and the airfield in 

mountains are sometimes short and it is important to have a sufficient 

low speed for landing.

To day the monowheel offert a compromise flaps position. In the three 

wheels the position flap is 29 to 30°? I am interested to obtain the 

same no more.

To day my flaps are in 25° position.

My idea is to install a handle on the flap tube command into the tunnel 

and the handle pass through one slot on the top of the tunnel, with 

three positions in order:

- Flight

- Take off

- Landing

Please look my drawing joint, I study this project.

Naturally I modified the OR5 and increase the slots on each side of the 

fuselage (About 20- 25 mm) I add a latch with spring to lock the handle 

in each position, this is not close.

I have only one problem I don't know what is the effort previously on 

the flap handle?



On many aircraft there is a three or more flaps positions, manual or 

electric. In the case of monowheel I prefer manual.

What is your opinion of this idea?



-- 



       --|--

--------(*)-------- 

Michel AUVRAY

mau11(at)free.fr

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rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Hi Michel



Where did you get information that the Tri gear can have more than 27 degrees? I just looked on Factory build manual and tri is same as mono, 25 to 27 degrees:

http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/pdfs/buildersmanuals/CBM%20-%20ANNEX%20E%28T%29%20Mar%202008.pdf



Like others have mentioned, I too heard that more tha 27 degrees will allow plane to take off before you have proper aileron authority on a Monowheel.



How would you deal with the fact that the down stop on the undercarriage mounting frame needs to be firmly planted?



Justin Kennedy has independent flaps on a Mono I think? Takeoffs in crosswinds with less than full flaps can be desirable on a mono.



If I were you, adjust to 27 degrees flaps, adjust your idle if you have a Rotax so it is smooth on ground at 1450RPM, but only use that setting for landing short. A fine pitch prop, or variable pitch should also help slowing plane down with a low idle. Remember low idle in air will not be as low as static. Best idle on ground 1800RPM plus. The lighter the aeroplane the better for slowing things down.



Even if you change flap setting just 2 degrees, go up and practice a full stall series cooridinated and not, try also in some turns to make sure you didn't introduce any nastyness. If you do tend to dropping a wing, you could try and reflex the ailerons just a little from neutral which would act as an extras bit of washout, also when you load wings ailerons tend to go down (perhaps try 3/32" reflex). 



Drouge chutes work a treat as does beta thrust!



Ron Parigoris

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Michel AUVRAY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello graham;

 How are you?

 My problem is the next.I live near Grenoble now, and the airfield in 

 mountains are sometimes short and it is important to have a sufficient 

 low speed for landing.

 To day the monowheel offert a compromise flaps position. In the three 

 wheels the position flap is 29 to 30°? I am interested to obtain the 

 same no more.

 To day my flaps are in 25° position.

 My idea is to install a handle on the flap tube command into the 

 tunnel and the handle pass through one slot on the top of the tunnel, 

 with three positions in order:

Hallo Michel!
	


I am good thank you, I trust you are well. I wish that I lived near 

Grenoble!

I think your idea would be OK. Remember that at these deflections the 

flap is producing a lot of drag.

I recommend when you land at these lower speeds you leave some power on, 

increased power will reduce stall speed but you will need to be very 

careful especially in gusty weather. A strong gust can instantly stall 

the airplane.

Graham

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: Reduce speed in approach

Hi Graham,



I seem to recall in conversations with Ivan or Andy or someone that the original design criteria was for 30 degrees of flap deflection, but ultimately all that could be achieved mechanically was 27 degrees.

 

Do you have any recollections of this, or is it just "hanger talk" that I have remembered and got tangled up in my aging neurons ?  Can you confirm or dispel this?



I do know from my experiments of trying to get negative flap defection, I could never extend the range of travel past 27 degrees, despite making several FL21 horns. Just as an aside Bud has told me with the elliptical lift distribution on the wing that negative flaps probably wouldn't buy me much anyway.

 

Micheal once upon a time, way back when I owned a Cessna 150 that had 40 degrees of flap.  I remember that I could really land it in a short distance, but it used to drop out of the sky like a man hole cover, and if I tried to do a go around I had t retract some flaps otherwise it wouldn't climb.  I can say that can replicate the same short landings in my Europa but I have to really focus on the approach speed.

 

I do have a question though, I was wondering way you are unable to achieve 27 degrees of flap deflection.



BTW, I can confirm that keeping a little power on helps with the airflow over the stabilizer and you can slow the aircraft down a little more, however you don't want to get too far behind the power curve that your engine / propeller combination won't pull you back if you need to power up and go around.  I have a 914 / Airmaster and I find that anything below 55 knots gets little tricky.  I'd suggest you try experimenting at altitude to get a feel of what its like.

 

As they say, "your mileage may vary", take it easy and fly safe.



Cheers, Paul

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

  

[quote] I am good thank you, I trust you are well. I wish that I lived near Grenoble!

 I think your idea would be OK. Remember that at these deflections the flap is producing a lot of drag.

 I recommend when you land at these lower speeds you leave some power on, increased power will reduce stall speed but you will need to be very careful especially in gusty weather. A strong gust can instantly stall the airplane.

  Graham[b]

ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Reduce speed in approach

Hi Michel,



Can you tell me what is the length of the runway at your airfield?



I have a monowheel and found landing it on the 400m strip asphalt at my base aerodrome very challenging, especially when I am alone in the plane. Grass is a bit more easy as less tendency to bounce.  



In extreme conditions, I stop the engine just after touchdown. That stops the runway needs.



I use 55knots as approach speed when no wind, 58 in windy conditions.



Kind regards, Jacques

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Reduce speed in approach

Hi Michel,



To answer your other questions, the trigear flaps are independent

of the the landing gear (since the gear are fixed!) and the flaps are 

continuously variable 0-25 degrees.



If I were in your position, I would pay very careful attention to what

David Stanbridge has to say, unless you have a wish to splint your

airframe into one of those mountains.



Instead, consider using a slip which the Europa does quite well to lose

altitude without increasing speed.



Please be careful!



Ira

_________________
Ira N224XS

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