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Very moving...

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brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: Very moving...

I didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and CEOs make millions”)  

   

The problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.  

   

Personally, I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when it does, it’s a trap.  

   

Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s socialism.  

   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

 To: 'Arthur White'

 Subject: Very moving...  

  

  

     

   

    

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/  

    

   

  [quote]  ;         - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[/b]http://www.matro===================[/b][/b]http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con[/b] [b]

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:57 am Post subject: Very moving...

Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking  back, perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read  it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I  totally misread the context. 

  

 Sorry about that. 

  

 Nico

  

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Campbell

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Very  moving...

 

  

I  didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a  code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was  what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and  CEOs make millions”) 

  

The  problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood  count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that  way. 

  

Personally,  I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to  romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it  has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The  government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when  it does, it’s a trap. 

  

Imagine  the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s  socialism. 

  

  

    

From:  owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico  css

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

To: 'Arthur  White'

Subject: Very  moving...



 

   

 

  

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		    ;         - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[/b]http://www.matro===================[/b][/b]http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con[/b] 



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
   [quote][b]

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: Very moving...

No worries, but man, are they getting sneaky. The theme seemed to be:  

   

Communism:  The Way to Be American!  

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:59 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

  

  

   

Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totally misread the context.   

   

Sorry about that.   

   

Nico  

   

   

       

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

I didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and CEOs make millions”)  

   

The problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.  

   

Personally, I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when it does, it’s a trap.  

   

Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s socialism.  

   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

 To: 'Arthur White'

 Subject: Very moving...  

  

  

     

   

    

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/  

    

   

  [quote]  ;         - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[b]

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: Very moving...

Bruce-  

   

Actually- The FAA has never advocated state ownership of airlines and aircraft…  So having the FAA run the government wouldn’t be socialism.  

   

We agree that it would be bad, however.  

   

 Just thought I’d point that out.  J  

   

Do not archive  

   

Robert S. Randazzo  

N414C  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

  

  

   

I didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and CEOs make millions”)  

   

The problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.  

   

Personally, I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when it does, it’s a trap.  

   

Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s socialism.  

   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

 To: 'Arthur White'

 Subject: Very moving...  

  

  

     

   

    

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		    ;         - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,http://www.matro===================</p;     - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://forums.matronics.com</bsp;       - List Contribution Web Sitenbsp;                       -Matt Drallehref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/con    	
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        [quote][b]

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Very moving...

Nico;

  

 Not me, I read the words and I listened to the  words.  

  

 I don't see socialism in the song, I see  a lot of Americans with a legitimate gripe.  I think if you just look at  the recent 'stimulus package' you can understand.  Ask yourself, who's  money is it and who is it going too.

  

 And I am doing quite well thank you, but I agree  with them in principle.  I know lots and lots of young parents that are  unemployed and struggling through no fault of their own, many college educated,  some not.

  

 Don

 [quote]   ---

andrew.bridget(at)telus.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: Very moving...

Nico, 

  

 thanks for this post. It is, as you say, very  touching. I know you've had comments about socialism, but, when you have time to  read this long reply, this is what I have to say...

  

 The second line about the guy’s job being shipped  off to China touched a nerve. Yet while I agree with what is said here my  experience is that some (maybe just a few) in the world today look to this and  see “China” as the enemy, and indeed, the Chinese too. I say this because  I had a nasty experience a while ago – I was in a  line-up to pay for groceries and a woman asked me if Rebecca was mine or  somebody else’s. I proudly – naturally – said she was mine; that Bridget  and I adopted her from Jiangxi province in early 2006. I must admit  I did not expect the response I got; that “The  [Canadian] government is allowing our jobs to be shipped there; now you’re  bringing them [the Chinese] here to take what few of our jobs  remain.”

  

 My initial reaction was to tell her go forth and  multiply – although not quite in those words – but I held back and said nothing.  After I simmered down I tried to look at it from her side. What she said was  uncalled for, yes, but she must have lost her job to be so bitter to make a  comment like that… which, in turn, got me thinking about the state of the world  and why we are losing our jobs to developing nations. 

  

 The conclusion I came to was it was our fault - we  have an overwhelming desire for more for less, even when we don’t need it. We  want to eat our cake and still have it after we have eaten it. Not all of us, I  hasten to add, but many of us to varying extents. Most things are made in China:  China has low cost of living, lots of human rights infringements and blatant  abuses, terrible working conditions, poor pay, and, as a result, can produce  things cheaply. We buy them. We pay ten times (or more) the price it cost the  supplier to buy them and, for us, it is still a bargain. And it is not just  products: services too. Call centres are being shipped to India and the  Philippines because labour costs are lower. Why? Because in today’s world, a  company has to be hugely profitable to survive. Shareholders want big profits.  And we are the shareholders. 

  

 Wal-Mart is a case in point. It is hugely  successful. We shop there. Why? Because it is cheap. Because most of its  products are from China. And who shops there? We do. We are the people who are  contributing to our own downfall because we want more for less. But will I (me  personally) stop shopping at Wal Mart? No. I want the things I buy. I may not  need them, but I want them. Do I really need that movie? No. Do I need that rod,  reel, Camping equipment that I bought the other day? No. But I wanted them, so I  bought them.

  

 To get philosophical, the world is in equilibrium,  something that the Chinese worked out long ago with their philosophy of Yin and  Yang. There is balance. When we make money, we take it from somewhere else: be  it a person or enterprise. It is the same with jobs. When we gain a job from  somewhere, usually it is because it has been lost elsewhere. So how do we stop  it? Governments could introduce protectionist policies and stop the so-called  free trade. Which means the developing nations will suffer, and developed  nations will continue in isolation until inflation takes them over.  

  

 So what’s the solution? I don’t know. Human nature  is to look after ourselves, not others. What if we turned it on its head? Not  that it will ever happen, but what if everybody in this world had an instant and  permanent mind-shift: instead human nature became looking after others to our  own expense? As I said, not that it is likely to ever happen, but think about  it. We, very quickly, would become equal. Instead of me looking after myself, I  would have 6.7 billion people (less one – me) to look after. But instead of just  having me looking after me, I would have 6.7 billion (less one) people looking  after me. Is that socialism? I suppose it is. And socialism is fine if only  everybody is equal and everybody wants it to the same degree. 

  

 And now for the bombshell - socialism is like a  Twin Commander - its heaven if every part of the aircraft works in perfect  harmony, but hell if one part breaks down. <grin!>

  

 God bless,

 Andrew

 



  

 [quote]   ---

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: Very moving...

Nico - you are a leader.... maintain the stance!



heat only gets rid of the dross and allows the pure metal to come out



I admire you brother - I drink coffee out of your mugs every monring!



bobf



 On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:59 AM, nico css <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)> wrote:

[quote]        Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking  back, perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read  it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I  totally misread the context. 

  

 Sorry about that. 

  

 Nico

  

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Bruce  Campbell

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: RE: Very  moving...

 

  

I  didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a  code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was  what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and  CEOs make millions”) 

  

The  problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood  count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that  way. 

  

Personally,  I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to  romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it  has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The  government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when  it does, it’s a trap. 

  

Imagine  the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s  socialism. 

  

  

    

From:  owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of nico  css

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

To: 'Arthur  White'

Subject: Very  moving...



 

   

 

  

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List

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[b]

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: Very moving...

That last line bothered me.  Just a resonse.  

   

Socialism is not like a Twin Commander of any variety. And even if it worked “perfectly”,  Its evil.  

   

Whatever the intentions of the people who take over a functioning society and socialize it, the whole thing is based on the idea that people don’t produce, they receive it form someone else. In other words, they take as given that there is some supply of wealth, a big pot of gold, that is being sat on by the “rich”, which can be “shared” by the government , and “that’s fair”.  

   

The natural state of man is poverty.  We only get anything because some collective “we” produce stuff.  That “we” is ultimately the individual, because there isn’t anyone else who’s going to do it.   Everything we get is because of the wealth that each individual produces.  There is no pot of gold. Instead, people produce and sell a good or service to someone else, who pays them approximately what its worth.  

   

As a software engineer for some years, I can attest that most of the time (almost always) people get back (on average) pretty much what they put in.  Most of the time apparent “unfairness” comes from a failure to understand what the value is that one is produce. Case in point: when the German Democratic Republic fell, the CIA (and the DDR ministry of Industry) valued their economy at about 70% of the value of the German Federal Republic’s, on a per capita basis.  They all based this on the ministry of industry figures which were in turn based on (pretty much accurate) reports of production at the factory level.   By these estimates Trabant was creating more value than Volkswagen.    

   

It wasn’t until the DDR fell that it became clear what the fallacy is:  A Trabant is *not* a Volkswagen.  In fact, the value of a Trabant when people had the choice whether or not to buy them was less than the scrap value of the metal. Every day Trabant workers would come to work, take perfectly good steel and reduce its value by producing a Trabant.  They *thought* they were producing, but in fact they were detracting from the national wealth.   The solution ultimately was to shut down Trabant.  VW hired and retrained the workers and now they actually produce something when they go to work. In a capitalist system, a company (like GM) that produces inferior goods, or the wrong goods, will eventually go bankrupt. The stockholders will pay for their folly, and the workers will get rehired doing something more valuable.  In a socialist system, the State pours more and more resources down a rat hole.  

   

Socialism removes these signals from the system.  Worse than that, it makes the political system rather than individuals choices the decision maker in the allocation of resources.  This both makes poor decisions in allocation, but it also corrupts the political system.  

   

Beyond that, it makes each individual a burden, rather than an asset.  Ever wondered why every socialist state since the French revolution has murdered a major portion of their population?  Simple.  Since the State has to support everyone,  and since in such a system output  falls consistently, there comes the time when rationing is necessary. Since the State doesn’t know how to create wealth (modern socialist states have lived by imitating the inventions of the capitalists) it must shed burden. So, eventually, it is necessary to choose who will live and who won’t.  Just consider the Obama administrations plans for “reducing costs in the medical system because we are spending too much”.   The “savings” are to decide which treatments are “cost effective”, at least partially on the basis of age.  The result is that a 70 year old who could live decades of productive life will be denied medical care because he isn’t cost effective, even if it kill him.    The Canadian cancer mortality rate is another good example.  Of course, a lot of socialist governments have been rather more aggressive in “rationing”, like the 20 million Russians starved to death during the 30s, the people sent to the gas in Poland and Germany, the mass starvation and mass executions in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so many other “paradises”.   

   

Finally, since the government becomes the fount from which all resources come, serving and manipulating the government becomes, by necessity, the primary activity of everyone.  So government the fair arbiter becomes government the aggressive advocate for whomever has grabbed the power this week.  Elections become corrupt because its *worth* a billion dollars to control the presidency or congress, etc.  Of course, when you put a billion dollars in, you want at least that much out.  So the job of government becomes collecting taxes, essentially at gun point to subsidize those who put the current government in power,  with little consideration for a benefit back to those people.    

   

In short, you have a ghastly mess.  And it happens every time.  

   

   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget(at)telus.net

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:42 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Very moving...  

  

  

     

Nico,   

    

   

    

thanks for this post. It is, as you say, very touching. I know you've had comments about socialism, but, when you have time to read this long reply, this is what I have to say...  

    

   

    

The second line about the guy’s job being shipped off to China touched a nerve. Yet while I agree with what is said here my experience is that some (maybe just a few) in the world today look to this and see “China” as the enemy, and indeed, the Chinese too. I say this because I had a nasty experience a while ago – I was in a line-up to pay for groceries and a woman asked me if Rebecca was mine or somebody else’s. I proudly – naturally – said she was mine; that Bridget and I adopted her from Jiangxi province in early 2006. I must admit I did not expect the response I got; that “The [Canadian] government is allowing our jobs to be shipped there; now you’re bringing them [the Chinese] here to take what few of our jobs remain.”  

    

   

    

My initial reaction was to tell her go forth and multiply – although not quite in those words – but I held back and said nothing. After I simmered down I tried to look at it from her side. What she said was uncalled for, yes, but she must have lost her job to be so bitter to make a comment like that… which, in turn, got me thinking about the state of the world and why we are losing our jobs to developing nations.   

    

   

    

The conclusion I came to was it was our fault - we have an overwhelming desire for more for less, even when we don’t need it. We want to eat our cake and still have it after we have eaten it. Not all of us, I hasten to add, but many of us to varying extents. Most things are made in China: China has low cost of living, lots of human rights infringements and blatant abuses, terrible working conditions, poor pay, and, as a result, can produce things cheaply. We buy them. We pay ten times (or more) the price it cost the supplier to buy them and, for us, it is still a bargain. And it is not just products: services too. Call centres are being shipped to India and the Philippines because labour costs are lower. Why? Because in today’s world, a company has to be hugely profitable to survive. Shareholders want big profits. And we are the shareholders.   

    

   

    

Wal-Mart is a case in point. It is hugely successful. We shop there. Why? Because it is cheap. Because most of its products are from China. And who shops there? We do. We are the people who are contributing to our own downfall because we want more for less. But will I (me personally) stop shopping at Wal Mart? No. I want the things I buy. I may not need them, but I want them. Do I really need that movie? No. Do I need that rod, reel, Camping equipment that I bought the other day? No. But I wanted them, so I bought them.  

    

   

    

To get philosophical, the world is in equilibrium, something that the Chinese worked out long ago with their philosophy of Yin and Yang. There is balance

steve2(at)sover.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: Very moving...

Hey Nico, chart your own course and go with what  your own heart and head tell you. 

  

 You won't always be popular(!) but you'll be a free  man. 

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Very moving...

That's  my motto also, Steve. 

 However, when I send stuff out that I haven't read but was  moved by the nice tune, then I need to get slapped on the upside of the head.  There were no lack of volunteers. I like it when people speak their minds. I  don't get offended. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and learn. If I  am right, well, everyone should just deal with it. I afford friend  and foe the same I take for myself. 

 Thanks

 Nico

 PS. You should be more liberal, Steve. I can't handle you  when you get all conservative on me. 

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at  Col-East

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:42 PM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Very  moving...

 

 Hey Nico, chart your own course and go with what  your own heart and head tell you. 

  

 You won't always be popular(!) but you'll be a free  man. 

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject: Very moving...

Nico, don’t feel like the lone stranger, I fell for it too.  

Jim  

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:59 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

  

   

Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totally misread the context.   

   

Sorry about that.   

   

Nico  

   

   

       

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

I didn’t get it.  What were they wanting? “Fairness”?  That’s become a code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was what they were wanting. (things like “my dad is making what my granddad did, and CEOs make millions”)  

   

The problem is, of course, that even if they weren’t (and given the high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.  

   

Personally, I’m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths resulting.    The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never help you. Even when it does, it’s a trap.  

   

Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA. That’s socialism.  

   

   

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM

 To: 'Arthur White'

 Subject: Very moving...  

  

  

     

   

    

http://www.bornagainamerican.org/  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
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andrew.bridget(at)telus.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Very moving...

Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at  getting a rise out of these good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin  Commander to Socialism? Scandalous!

  

 I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can  only work in perfect harmony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the  society. I'm not passing judgement on whether it is evil or good. What  I said was "socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it  to the same degree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and everybody  wants socialism to the same degree then everybody's judgement of it would be the  same. That is democracy. It is not a case of socialism never being able to work:  where socialism has worked for those in the system is where it is  totally voluntary and where they share the same belief, for example, monasteries  and kibbutzim. 

  

 I once read an inspirational story about a man  who was taken on a tour of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first -  there he saw people starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to  cannibalism. As if to torture them further in the middle of the room, but  surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food. The only way people  could get at the food was with long handled spoons, but the spoons were so long  that once they filled the spoon from the pot, they couldn't get it into  their mouths. The second room was "heaven" and it was almost the same: same pot  of food, same surrounding fire, same long handled spoons, but all the people  were contented and well-fed. The man asked his guide why this group  was well-fed and content. His guide replied, "Here they have learned to  feed each other."  

  

  From a personal perspective I am no socialist -  capitalist to the hilt - but I do tend to lean more to the side  of altruism. I am interested in anthropology and what makes people  think the way they do - like the woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic  side of me feels bad for her and her situation, whatever it may  be.



  

 God bless,

 Andrew

  

 [quote]   ---

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: Very moving...

Bruce & Andrew

  

 I am a Capitalist through and through, although I  do believe it must be monitored lest Greed takes control.

  

 In our current situation here in the USA, we have  forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of  the bean counters.  In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between  Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while  still protecting our Freedoms.  Corruption enters the picture and we loose  our freedoms and increase our greed.

  

 I have never understood how if I offer a cop a  hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is  a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence?  Once again the  question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our  constitutional rights.  The pendulum swings, however, when the government  enters the picture, things seem to really get screwed up.  I don't know the  answers, but I do have some thoughts.  

  

 I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in  our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to  happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart.

  

 Don

 [quote]   ---

rsrandazzo(at)precisionma
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:35 am Post subject: Very moving...

Don-  

   

The Economist published a fantastic article explaining the relationship between capitalism, greed and government regulation this past week.  If you can get a copy- do so…  

   

I’ve always enjoyed the Economist because they really don’t care to take sides- they simply address things from the perspective of what is good from an economic standpoint.  This article pokes fun at those running around screaming about socialism, but then turns the corner to wag a firm finger in the direction of Washington to warn them of the potential pitfalls in the current course of action.  

   

I like well rounded…  Astoundingly rare in this age of sound-bites and talking-head-infighting…  

   

Robert S. Randazzo  

N414C  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of L D GIROD

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:30 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Very moving...  

  

  

     

Bruce & Andrew  

    

   

    

I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be monitored lest Greed takes control.  

    

   

    

In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean counters.  In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still protecting our Freedoms.  Corruption enters the picture and we loose our freedoms and increase our greed.  

    

   

    

I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence?  Once again the question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights.  The pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, things seem to really get screwed up.  I don't know the answers, but I do have some thoughts.    

    

   

    

I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart.  

    

   

    

Don  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: andrew.bridget(at)telus.net (andrew.bridget(at)telus.net)   

    

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:41 PM  

    

Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving...  

    

   

    

Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at getting a rise out of these good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin Commander to Socialism? Scandalous!  

    

   

    

I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can only work in perfect harmony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the society. I'm not passing judgement on whether it is evil or good. What I said was "socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to the same degree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and everybody wants socialism to the same degree then everybody's judgement of it would be the same. That is democracy. It is not a case of socialism never being able to work: where socialism has worked for those in the system is where it is totally voluntary and where they share the same belief, for example, monasteries and kibbutzim.   

    

   

    

I once read an inspirational story about a man who was taken on a tour of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first - there he saw people starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to cannibalism. As if to torture them further in the middle of the room, but surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food. The only way people could get at the food was with long handled spoons, but the spoons were so long that once they filled the spoon from the pot, they couldn't get it into their mouths. The second room was "heaven" and it was almost the same: same pot of food, same surrounding fire, same long handled spoons, but all the people were contented and well-fed. The man asked his guide why this group was well-fed and content. His guide replied, "Here they have learned to feed each other."    

    

   

      

From a personal perspective I am no socialist - capitalist to the hilt - but I do tend to lean more to the side of altruism. I am interested in anthropology and what makes people think the way they do - like the woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic side of me feels bad for her and her situation, whatever it may be.  

  

    

   

    

God bless,  

    

Andrew  

    

   

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jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Very moving...

I am going to through my 2 cents in.  

   

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/firearms44  

   

Go to the second video. It explains a lot.  

Jim  

   

         

  

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo

 Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:45 AM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Very moving...  

  

   

Don-  

   

The Economist published a fantastic article explaining the relationship between capitalism, greed and government regulation this past week.  If you can get a copy- do so…  

   

I’ve always enjoyed the Economist because they really don’t care to take sides- they simply address things from the perspective of what is good from an economic standpoint.  This article pokes fun at those running around screaming about socialism, but then turns the corner to wag a firm finger in the direction of Washington to warn them of the potential pitfalls in the current course of action.  

   

I like well rounded…  Astoundingly rare in this age of sound-bites and talking-head-infighting…  

   

Robert S. Randazzo  

N414C  

       

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of L D GIROD

 Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:30 PM

 To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Very moving...  

  

  

     

Bruce & Andrew  

    

   

    

I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be monitored lest Greed takes control.  

    

   

    

In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean counters.  In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still protecting our Freedoms.  Corruption enters the picture and we loose our freedoms and increase our greed.  

    

   

    

I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence?  Once again the question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights.  The pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, things seem to really get screwed up.  I don't know the answers, but I do have some thoughts.    

    

   

    

I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart.  

    

   

    

Don  

  [quote]    

---

brcamp(at)windows.microso
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: Very moving...

Amen

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:53 AM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...

I am going to through my 2 cents in.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/firearms44

Go to the second video. It explains a lot.

Jim

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert S. Randazzo

Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:45 AM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...

Don-

The Economist published a fantastic article explaining the relationship between capitalism, greed and government regulation this past week.  If you can get a copy- do so…

I’ve always enjoyed the Economist because they really don’t care to take sides- they simply address things from the perspective of what is good from an economic standpoint.  This article pokes fun at those running around screaming about socialism, but then turns the corner to wag a firm finger in the direction of Washington to warn them of the potential pitfalls in the current course of action.

I like well rounded…  Astoundingly rare in this age of sound-bites and talking-head-infighting…

Robert S. Randazzo

N414C

From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of L D GIROD

Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:30 PM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Very moving...

Bruce & Andrew

I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be monitored lest Greed takes control.

In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean counters.  In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still protecting our Freedoms.  Corruption enters the picture and we loose our freedoms and increase our greed.

I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence?  Once again the question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights.  The pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, things seem to really get screwed up.  I don't know the answers, but I do have some thoughts.  

I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart.

Don

[quote]

---

dongirod

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: Very moving...

Robert;

  

 Although an 'economist' by college degree major, I  do not take that magazine, tried to pull the article up online, but  failed.  Will keep my eye out in some of the stores, if I see it I will get  it.

  

 Thanks, 

  

 Don

 [quote]   ---

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: Very moving...

HI DON.........

 

 Give me a call at 360-903-6901.  Thanks!!  Jim Metzger

   	  Quote: 	
		  Don 	


 

 

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