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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: R: VGs

> Zero ground roll is a splat

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jack B. Hart FF004


	




Jack H:



Zero ground roll is very attainable.



Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII.  Both under same circumstances.



Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City, Colorado, in 

2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville, CO, highest airport in 

the North American Continent.  John landed at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts. 

I landed at 1700 with 38 steady and gusts.  I hovered to a touch down on a 

gravel pad between the taxiway and the active.  John was standing there to 

catch the wing when I touched down.  I'm sure we shared this with you all 

after it happened.  We were on our way to MV.



The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without flaps at 50 

mph IAS.  If I had known the turbulence was going to slack off the moment I 

touched down, I could have used full flaps and done another hovering touch 

down.  If you saw John B's video clip of my landing, you can see how short 

my ground roll was touching down at 50 mph IAS.  I can assure you we had 

some "real" wind that day, that continued for another couple days without 

let up.



Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45 mph 

winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without let up. 

Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying.



Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of 

difference in surviving the landing or not.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:55 pm Post subject: R: VGs

Just about the time I'm hitting the sod I prefer a higher stall  

speed.  -at least 1 MPH higher than the wind on my nose.

That is the time that VGs and flaps (unless you are "Queekdraw" and  

retract them at exactly squat time) are no friend.

I flew my MKIII for two years before i even tried flaps.  A pleasant  

novelty that I have come to appreciate.

BB

On 25, Jun 2009, at 6:06 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > Zero ground roll is a splat

>

> Jack B. Hart FF004

 Jack H:

 Zero ground roll is very attainable.

 Did one in my Ultrastar and the MKIII.  Both under same circumstances.

 Wish John W was still here to verify my landing at Canon City,  

 Colorado, in 2004, where I met John to do an attempt on Leadville,  

 CO, highest airport in the North American Continent.  John landed  

 at 1300 with 21 steady and gusts. I landed at 1700 with 38 steady  

 and gusts.  I hovered to a touch down on a gravel pad between the  

 taxiway and the active.  John was standing there to catch the wing  

 when I touched down.  I'm sure we shared this with you all after it  

 happened.  We were on our way to MV.

 The landing I did at the Rock House this year, was done without  

 flaps at 50 mph IAS.  If I had known the turbulence was going to  

 slack off the moment I touched down, I could have used full flaps  

 and done another hovering touch down.  If you saw John B's video  

 clip of my landing, you can see how short my ground roll was  

 touching down at 50 mph IAS.  I can assure you we had some "real"  

 wind that day, that continued for another couple days without let up.

 Last year, 2008, John W and I were grounded in Ontario, OR, with 45  

 mph winds and gust over 50 mph for three days and nights without  

 let up. Normally, we set 25 mph steady as our red line for not flying.

 Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a  

 lot of difference in surviving the landing or not.

 john h

 mkIII

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: R: VGs

At 06:00 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover.

                G.Aman mk-3c


	


OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related

_________________
Possum

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: R: VGs

At 03:35 PM 6/25/2009, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Your understanding of this is wrong.  You are misapplying a generality 

that applies to slow flying airplanes where the approach speed is very 

close to what its stall speed is.  What you do not want is a gust causing 

a loss of airspeed and stall in the airplane...


	


That's one concern, which I guess is a non issue if you fly your approach 

at the same speed.  However, if you _do_ use the same approach speed, 

doesn't it take longer to bleed off enough speed to set it down 

stalled?  It's that period of time, close to the ground on a gusty day, 

that concerns me.



Don't get me wrong, I find the concept intriguing... and I'd like to fly 

the same plane with and without VG's... but not enough to go through the 

hassle of mounting them on my plane, and having to remove them and clean up 

adhesive residue if I don't want to keep them.  As John says, I don't 

personally feel the need for them.  But if somebody has an UltraStar with 

VG's that they're willing to let me fly, I'd love to try it.



-Dana



--

  In America, anyone can become president. That's one of the risks you take.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:10 pm Post subject: R: VGs

> OK .....we got 3 sets on this one - I think.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EjsgLXdb8&feature=related 

 
	




Possum:



Think this guy has VGs on his helmet, just like Buford.



I'd try the helmet VGs but afraid I might get a little light headed.



john h

mkIII - Don't know how I did it without "them"!

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: R: VGs

At 05:06 PM 6/25/09 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Five or 10 mph in the speed range we land is not going to make a lot of 

difference in surviving the landing or not.




	




John,



Say you touch down at 50 mph verses 40 mph, there is an kinetic energy 

reduction of 35 percent for the same gross weight.  



If one compares landing at 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 40 mph with 

500 pound gross weight, the kinetic energy reduction will be 68 

percent.



Now compare the 50 mph at 1000 pound gross weight to 30 mph with 500 gross 

weight (FireFly), the kinetic energy reduction will be 82 percent.



Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come out 

of a botched up landing in the best shape?



Fly safe.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: R: VGs

> Given equal piloting abilities, who do you think is most likely to come 

out

 	  Quote: 	
		   of a botched up landing in the best shape?



 Jack B. Hart FF004


	




I don't know, Jack.



Probably be pretty hard to find two pilots with the same piloting abilities.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:42 am Post subject: R: VGs

Like so many others here I have  been very happy with my VG's and been flying over a year with them and installed with the carpet tape and no problems

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:19 am Post subject: R: VGs

Think I'll put 3 sets on ,then I can hover.

                G.Aman mk-3c  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


If you can hover with 3 sets…. Try  4…      

The negative airspeed take off and landings  must have some application.  

   

Boyd Young  

Do not archive.  

       [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: R: VGs

Boyd:

  

 That could be the reason some folks haul "ballast"  in their Kolbs.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    

   If you can hover with    3 sets…. Try  4…    

      

The negative airspeed    take off and landings  must have some    application.   

    

Boyd    Young   

    

 

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: R: VGs

John,  

   

Few things make me chuckle for the entire time I am reading mail..    

Still have a smile on my face.    

Boyd Young  

Do not archive  

   

   

   

Boyd:  

   

That could be the reason some folks haul "ballast" in their Kolbs.  

   

john h  

mkIII  

   

If you can hover with 3 sets…. Try  4…      

The negative airspeed take off and landings  must have some application.  

   

Boyd Young  

   

    	  Quote: 	
		   	
  

   

       [quote][b]

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: R: VGs

Yea,I can back it into the hanger before shutting it down.It does slow real good, why not try for reverse!

 

        G.Aman

 

   

 

 --

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: R: VGs

I don't know......maybe it ain't the VGs that would make you a little 

light headed?



At 09:08 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Possum:



Think this guy has VGs on his helmet, just like Buford.

I'd try the helmet VGs but afraid I might get a little light headed.

john h

BEAUFORD_2.jpg

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_________________
Possum

sky-king(at)inbox.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: R: VGs

Now that IS funny. What is he smokin??



[quote] --

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