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GBzodiflyer

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 7

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

 601 XL AIRCRAFT ARE CLEARED FOR FLIGHT IN THE UK WITH THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS INCLUDED-

1, Aileron mass balance system.

2, Vertical stiffening of the carry through spar.

3, modified and less sensitive elevator trim modification.

4, Temporary max 0 fuel weight 494 kg until Canadian static load tests are known.

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

On Wednesday 26 August 2009 15:54, GBzodiflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



  601 XL AIRCRAFT ARE CLEARED FOR FLIGHT IN THE UK WITH THE FOLLOWING

 MODIFICATIONS INCLUDED- 1, Aileron mass balance system.

 2, Vertical stiffening of the carry through spar.

 3, modified and less sensitive elevator trim modification.

 4, Temporary max 0 fuel weight 494 kg until Canadian static load tests are

 known.

On the one hand, I'm happy that there is a path that will unground 601XLs in 
	


the UK. 



On the other, I have the uncomfortable feeling that this may be a little like 

trying to swat flying insects: it may not hit the actual problem(s), if any. 

We still do not appear to have a firm definition of the actual problem(s). 

==============================================

   You can check on my aircraft construction     

progress at: http://www.mykitlog.com/santaigo

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

=================================================

LHusky

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 86
Location: Madras, Oregon

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Anybody got their hands on these modifications yet?

  

 Larry Husky 

 Madras, Oregon

  

  In a message dated 8/26/2009 1:56:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  thehighflyer(at)aol.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith601-List message posted by: "GBzodiflyer"    <thehighflyer(at)aol.com>



601 XL AIRCRAFT ARE CLEARED FOR FLIGHT IN    THE UK WITH THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS INCLUDED-

1, Aileron mass balance    system.

2, Vertical stiffening of the carry through spar.

3, modified    and less sensitive elevator trim modification.

4, Temporary max 0 fuel    weight 494 kg until Canadian static load tests are    known.







Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259787#259787===============================================

_-=    Use the  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


 

  [quote][b]

countzero

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

That is great news. Will there be an XL flying to the Sywell Revival rally?



 	  GBzodiflyer wrote: 	
		   601 XL AIRCRAFT ARE CLEARED FOR FLIGHT IN THE UK WITH THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS INCLUDED-

1, Aileron mass balance system.

2, Vertical stiffening of the carry through spar.

3, modified and less sensitive elevator trim modification.

4, Temporary max 0 fuel weight 494 kg until Canadian static load tests are known.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Ready, Fire, Aim.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Hi Jim,



While I believe you are correct, I am afraid this is as good as it 

will get.  The FAA apparently has decided there really is no problem 

with the XL, so we can expect nothing more from them.  Chris has 

promised release of the design changes when the situation in Europe 

reached a conclusion, so I guess we can now get the drawings.



I just wrote an email to Sebastian asking for the drawings.  When I 

get them, I will probably implement some or all of the changes on my 

XL and proceed into flight test.  My position since the NTSB letter 

was released was that  my plane would be grounded until their primary 

complaints were resolved - aileron mass balance and a control 

improvement to eliminate the response problem.



Paul

XL awaiting design changes

At 02:11 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  On the one hand, I'm happy that there is a path that will unground 601XLs in

the UK.



On the other, I have the uncomfortable feeling that this may be a little like

trying to swat flying insects: it may not hit the actual problem(s), if any.

We still do not appear to have a firm definition of the actual problem(s).

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

This is like - A guy comes into the hospital with a sore leg, lacerations and blurry vision.  Going only by what other people have told him was wrong, they set and cast his broken leg, clean, suture and bandage his lacerations and remove the cataracts and insert new lenses.  Only his leg wasn't broken, it was just sprained.  His lacerations needed only band-aids.  He didn't have cataracts, and simply needed corrective glasses. The guy goes home satisfied, but later dies  of undiagnosed cancer.  Is this analogous ?

 

 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive

 

   

 

   

 

 --

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Paul,

  

 The control response "problem", given the posts  I've seen, resides in the hand on the stick.  This is a kabuki  dance.

  

 Karl

 [quote]   ---

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Agree

 [quote]   ---

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

On Wednesday 26 August 2009 16:53, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    This is like - A guy comes into the hospital with a sore leg, lacerations

 and blurry vision.? Going only by what other people have told him was

 wrong, they set and cast his broken leg, clean, suture and bandage his

 lacerations and remove the cataracts and insert new lenses.? Only his leg

 wasn't broken, it was just sprained.? His lacerations needed only

 band-aids.? He didn't have cataracts, and simply needed corrective glasses.

 The guy goes home satisfied, but later dies  of undiagnosed cancer.? Is

 this analogous ?


	


..or possibly, by making to corrections to things which may not have been 

wrong in the first place, one of the corrections causes new problems.



We really really need to do something to appease people, even if it is wrong.

-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Exactly.



But, I think this is really the next best thing to finding out the airplane is bulletproof, no matter what the pilot does to it in flight or in the hangar. (Not in THIS lifetime!)



We in the US of A have the luxury of implementing some, none, or all of the recommended "fixes" in our E-AB Zodies.



If the spar stiffening results in a G or two of extra margin, I'll consider that one. Beyond that, who knows? My personal preference is not to monkey with the control system, but just maintain cable tensions.



Well, they had to come up with SOMETHING, whether or not a real need was ever proven. It could've been a lot worse.



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP



--

ronpollock(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

mirko

Joined: 12 Jul 2008
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:38 am Post subject: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Does anyone know/seen the actual UK tests results? Would be great to hear what they had to say. I suppose the UK-boys would have some sort of agreement with Chris.H to keep certain information confidential.



Regards,

               Mirko

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

 	  psm(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Hi Jim,



While I believe you are correct, I am afraid this is as good as it 

will get.  The FAA apparently has decided there really is no problem 

with the XL, so we can expect nothing more from them. 	




What makes yo say that? Let's look at some quotes from the FAA response to the NTSB letter.



"If the special review team finds an inherent design issue, the FAA will take appropriate action based on those findings."



"If the special review team finds any inherent deficiencies, the FAA will decide on an appropriate an appropriate course of action."



They make those statements or words to the same effect no less than 6 times in the letter.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Pete54

Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 19
Location: Scotland

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

I own a 2 year old XL which has been grounded by the LAA / CAA action in the UK.



My understanding of the test results is that with no aileron tension and the balance weights fitted there was no tendency to flutter.  Pretty much as expected as the German trials suggested there was the potential for flutter with less than 5 lbs force.  (the test aircraft was instrumented to detect movement).



The centre section modifications are I would guess an area of some 'difference' between the LAA and CH.  The LAA analysis used a 'pin jointed' approach of load transmission between the wing spar and the centre section.  This is unlikely due to the clamping force of the wing bolts - but it is a very conservative approach.  Not surprisingly it results in the need for strengthening....



If anyone has any details on the Canadian testing I would be interested to  get any details.

_________________
Pete Morris

jfowler120(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

In other words, the basis for the flutter testing  was not following maintenance procedures which specify cable  tensioning!

  

 Karl

 [quote]   ---

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

A long time ago the tails began falling off the v-tailed Bonanza and Beech and many owners with a hell of a lot more invested then we have wanted to pretend it wasn't an issue. But of course it was, and  after several more deaths an edumacated guess was made that the design was flawed, a fix was prescribed and everyone (well, almost everyone) lived happily ever after. I hope this will be the case here.



Terry Turnquist

601 XL- Plans



--- On Thu, 8/27/09, Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]

From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 8:45 AM



--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Gig Giacona" <[url=/mc/compose?to=wrgiacona(at)gmail.com]wrgiacona(at)gmail.com[/url]>

psm(at)att.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Jim,

 

 While I believe you are correct, I am afraid this is as good as it 

 will get.  The FAA apparently has decided there really is no problem 

 with the XL, so we can expect nothing more from them. 


	




What makes yo say that? Let's look at some quotes from the FAA response to the NTSB letter.



"If the special review team finds an inherent design issue, the FAA will take appropriate action based on those findings."



"If the special review team finds any inherent deficiencies, the FAA will decide on an appropriate an appropriate course of action."



They make those statements or words to the same effect no less than 6 times in the letter.



--------

W.R.  &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List" target="_blank">http://www.ma            - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

=   --> 

    start: 0000-00-00 end: 0000-00-00        [quote][b]

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Terry Turnquist wrote:

 

  

         A long time ago the tails began falling off the v-tailed Bonanza and Beech and many owners with a hell of a lot more invested then we have wanted to pretend it wasn't an issue. But of course it was, and  after several more deaths an edumacated guess was made that the design was flawed, a fix was prescribed and everyone (well, almost everyone) lived happily ever after. I hope this will be the case here. 

 

 

 Terry,

 

 If you followed the Bonanza, you would know that saying "the tails began falling off the v-tailed Bonanza"  is very misleading.  Yes, there were failures, but in ALL cases, the airplanes were in extremely turbulent air. Most were in thunderstorm-related turbulence, but one was caught in the wing-tip vortex of an airliner.   The V tails weren't just "falling off".  They were being ripped off.  The only design "flaw" was that they were not designed to fly into thunder storms.  Since the "fix", V-tailed Bonanza drivers that fly into thunderstorms now lose their wings first.

 

 Jay Bannister

 Do not archive

 

 

 

     [quote][b]

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 01:54:48PM -0400, jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If you followed the Bonanza, you would know that saying "the tails began

 falling off the v-tailed Bonanza"? is very misleading.? Yes, there were

 failures, but in ALL cases, the airplanes were in extremely turbulent air.

 Most were in thunderstorm-related turbulence, but one was caught in the

 wing-tip vortex of an airliner.?  The V tails weren't just "falling off".?

 They were being ripped off.? The only design "flaw" was that they were not

 designed to fly into thunder storms.? Since the "fix", V-tailed Bonanza

 drivers that fly into thunderstorms now lose their wings first.


	


Quite so. OTOH, the fix did one thing more: it restored the reputation of

the airplane. That's why I expect a fix to be developed and made available

(and, likely, required for SLSA Zodiacs).

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: uk 601 xl aircraft cleared for flight

Hi Guys,



Let me add my own version of the Bonanza story (yes, I lived through 

all that . . .)



The story I kept hearing for a decade or so of in-flight breakups of 

V-tail Bonanzas was it was all because of poor pilots who lost 

control of the planes, got going too fast (it was very slick) and 

proceeded to pull up too hard and pull the tail off.  It was said 

often that these guys just weren't up to flying a high performance 

plane like a Bonanza.  Of course, none of them were around to defend 

themselves from this slander.



Paul

XL awaiting engineering changes.



At 10:54 AM 8/27/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Terry Turnquist wrote:



A long time ago the tails began falling off the v-tailed Bonanza and 

Beech and many owners with a hell of a lot more invested then we 

have wanted to pretend it wasn't an issue. But of course it was, 

and  after several more deaths an edumacated guess was made that the 

design was flawed, a fix was prescribed and everyone (well, almost 

everyone) lived happily ever after. I hope this will be the case here.

Terry,



If you followed the Bonanza, you would know that saying "the tails 

began falling off the v-tailed Bonanza"  is very misleading.  Yes, 

there were failures, but in ALL cases, the airplanes were in 

extremely turbulent air. Most were in thunderstorm-related 

turbulence, but one was caught in the wing-tip vortex of an 

airliner.  The V tails weren't just "falling off".  They were being 

ripped off.  The only design "flaw" was that they were not designed 

to fly into thunder storms.  Since the "fix", V-tailed Bonanza 

drivers that fly into thunderstorms now lose their wings first.



Jay Bannister

Do not archive

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