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AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

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hcourier(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Hello,

  

 Had a small hydraulic line in the left wheel well break a while back.   Had to land with no brakes, flaps, or steering.  Got that fixed.  Flew  plane to the A&P location for an annual.  Test flight after the annual,  hydraulic leak in either the up or down line to the right main gear,   actual line hasn't been isolated yet.  My question...both hydraulic lines,  on different side of the plane (comletely different lines also) have broken  within 2 hours of flying time.  Is there any hydraulic line history or  trend for Commanders whereby hydraulic lines start to fail at the same  time.  In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of  flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience  here?

  

 Had to have new engine mounts and wastegates replaced during the  annual.  Paul Gendron in Ft Lauderdale, FL did a good job with  the work.  Corrosion on the mounts and manual wastegates were out of  shape and quite thin at the elbows.   Plane has been down over 4  months and now this hydraulic line problem. 

  

 Ray Mansfield

 N91ES

 850-217-5185

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tfisher(at)commandergroup
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

My hydraulic failure was due to a badly made  replacement hard line in the right wheel well which put creases in the outside  portion of a 90 degree curve.

 Tom

 formally C-GISS

 680FLP (Mr.RPM)

  

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cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Ray Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of 

 flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper 

fabrication.  I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and 

didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle 

than copper lines.  The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to 

flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for 

aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.  

The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.  It 

also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.  

You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.  During my 

commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every 

hard line in the airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a very careful 

inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the 

nacelles.  Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps 

are not loose or missing.  If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to 

old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.  Clean 

the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.  

Even small pits lead to failure.  Look for any areas where the lines are 

chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas 

immediately.  It's all just part of being the care-taker of a complex 

old airframe.



good luck,

chris

dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.  I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area.  Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.  Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.

 Don



 

   From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems



--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>



Ray Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication.  I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines.  The tool you'll find  at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.  The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.  It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.  You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.  During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.  Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.  If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.  Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion  pitting.  Even small pits lead to failure.  Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately.  It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip;                     &n===============

 [quote][b]

tfisher(at)commandergroup
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

In addition to the last failure two years before that the  line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a  chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which  dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires.  I had to replace almost  all the wires in the bundle.  Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the  entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected  from any other leaks that may occur in the future.

  

 Tom

 Formally C-GISS

 680FLP (Mr.RPM)

 [quote]   ---

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander are aluminum.  I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would be steel or SS.  I manufacturer equipment that runs in this pressure range and we always use SS 1/4" tubing and compression fittings.It is easy to work, bends will with a tubing bender, would resist corrosion and lots of other good features.

Would it be a big deal with the FAA to change to SS tubing?

I am not an A&P.

Tylor Hall

On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Donald Falik wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.  I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area.  Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.  Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.

Don

From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems



--> Commander-List message posted by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>



Ray Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication.  I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines.  The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.  The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.  It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.  You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.  During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.  Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.  If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.  Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.  Even small pits lead to failure.  Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately.  It's all just part of being the care-talectricwww.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip;                     &n===============





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cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Tylor Hall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero 

 commander are aluminum.  I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi 

 lines would be steel or SS.


	


I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple 

hundred pounds of weight to an airplane 

Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is 

typical for light GA aircraft.   Converting a Commander to all stainless 

lines would add an enormous amount of weight.

chris

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

The "hard lines" in all the Commanders are becoming the number one hyd issue.  Inspect all of them and dont kid yourself.  If they have any corrosion, change them out.

   ALSO!!You landed with no brakes or steering and pulled it off, good on you!  It is not necessary do that. PLEASE, PLEASE EVERYONE, LISTEN UP.  AS SOON AS THE ENGINS ARE RUNNING PULL THE AUX HYD CIRCUIT BREAKER.  DOING THIS ASSURES THAT THERE WILL BE ENOUGH FLUID FOR BRAKES AND STEERING.  PLEASE, LETS STOP BEING STUBBORN ABOUT THIS BEFORE ANOTHER AIRPLANE IS LOST!!  Thanks and good job with the landing!!  jb

 

 

 --

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

We save a whole bunch when we go to modern electronics.

SS tubing is not that heavy.  I will go look it up.

There is a question.  How much tubing is in a Twin Commander?

How much tubing can we remove when the oil pressure and fuel pressure lines come out and are replace with electrical remote sensors?



Tylor Hall



On Nov 15, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Chris wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Tylor Hall wrote:

> I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander are aluminum.  I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would be steel or SS.

 

 I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple hundred pounds of weight to an airplane 

 Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is typical for light GA aircraft.   Converting a Commander to all stainless lines would add an enormous amount of weight.

 chris

dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.  The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line.  The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage.  That was the one due to an improper flare.  The mechanic showed it to me.

   From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM

Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

 DIV { MARGIN:0px;}   In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires.  I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.  Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future.

 Tom

 Formally C-GISS

 680FLP (Mr.RPM)

 [quote] ---

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot.300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty weight.



Tylor Hall



On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:

[quote]Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.  The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line.  The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage.  That was the one due to an improper flare.  The mechanic showed it to me.

From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca (tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems



In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires.  I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.  Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future.

 

Tom

Formally C-GISS

680FLP (Mr.RPM)

[quote]---

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Tylor Hall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. 

 per foot.


	


Tylor,

Can you provide a reference for those numbers please?  My materials 

quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times 

*heavier* than aluminum.



chris

blorber(at)southwestcirru
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Two charts that show up in a quick search:



http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm

http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm



Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives .028 lbs/ft for aluminum and .082 for stainless.



--

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-153-scs.pdf



6061 is a medium strength alloy used for most general-purpose applications. it is more corrosion-resistant than 2024. It is also easier to weld than 2024.
2024 is a high-strength alloy most often used in aerospace applications. It has a yield strength that is roughly 10 percent higher and an ultimate strength of roughly 50 percent higher than 6061.I got this quote off Onlinemetals.com.  I did not find a difference in the weight of 6061 VS 2024.  Does any one have the right alloy?  Looks like the 2024 is the aerospace version?  Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum?  I buy it in 20' lengths.

Tylor Hall



[quote]

Two charts that show up in a quick search:



http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm

http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm



Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives .028 lbs/ft for aluminum and .082 for stainless.



--

cschuerm(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Tylor Hall wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   <http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-153-scs.pdf>

 I did not find a difference in the weight of 6061 VS 2024.  Does any 

 one have the right alloy?  Looks like the 2024 is the aerospace 

 version?  Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum?


	


Tylor,

A lot of my books are still packed in boxes from moving so I don't have 

much definitive information available.  I checked AC43.13 and it doesn't 

mention anything about substitution.  Actually, the version I have 

doesn't mention stainless at all although I know there is an aircraft 

approved 316L SS tube. 

There are several different alloys used for alum.  3003-0 is used for 

low pressure applications (mainly instrument stuff).  5052-0 is medium 

pressure (hydraulic, fuel, oil).  I think the high pressure apps used 

2024-T3 (which is a typical alloy for aircraft structures and skin)



For my two cents, I'd replace aluminum with aluminum.  If you're in a 

corrosive environment, paint the tubes with zinc chromate.



chris

nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Tylor,

 Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness  will have something to do with it, right?

 Nico

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor  Hall

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP  Hydraulic line problems

 

SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453  lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty  weight.

 

 Tylor Hall

 

  On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		           Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.  The failure    of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was    just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent    line.  The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the    compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the    fuselage.  That was the one due to an improper flare.  The mechanic    showed it to me.



   

         From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca (tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17    AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP    Hydraulic line problems



   In addition to the last failure two    years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right    wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main    wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the    wires.  I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.  Once    that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol    proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may    occur in the future.

    

   Tom

   Formally C-GISS

   680FLP (Mr.RPM)

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message  -----

     From: Donald Falik (dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net)

     To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

     Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32      AM

     Subject: Re: AC-680FLP      Hydraulic line problems

     



          I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.  I      had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area.  Boy was that a      mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.  Shortly      thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due      to an improper flare from a previous repair.

     Don



     

               From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52      AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP      Hydraulic line problems



--> Commander-List message posted      by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>



Ray      Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in      the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have      experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it      was probably due to improper fabrication.  I've seen many cases where      someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a      different flare angle than copper lines.  The tool you'll find at your      local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too      sharp an angle for aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You also      mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.  The      aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.  It also      "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.  You      may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.  During my commander      restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the      airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a very careful inspection of      all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.       Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or      missing.  If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out      supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.  Clean the lines      carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.  Even      small pits lead to failure.  Look for any areas where the lines are      chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas      immediately.  It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip;                          &n===============





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   [quote][b]

tylorhall(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

NICO,NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum.  .080 VS .0453

Typo error.

Tylor Hall



On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Tylor,

 Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness  will have something to do with it, right?

 Nico

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor  Hall

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP  Hydraulic line problems

 

SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453  lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty  weight.

 

 Tylor Hall

 

  On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		           Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.  The failure    of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was    just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent    line.  The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the    compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the    fuselage.  That was the one due to an improper flare.  The mechanic    showed it to me.



   

         From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca (tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17    AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP    Hydraulic line problems



   In addition to the last failure two    years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right    wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main    wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the    wires.  I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.  Once    that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol    proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may    occur in the future.

    

   Tom

   Formally C-GISS

   680FLP (Mr.RPM)

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message  -----

     From: Donald Falik (dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net)

     To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

     Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32      AM

     Subject: Re: AC-680FLP      Hydraulic line problems

     



          I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.  I      had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area.  Boy was that a      mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.  Shortly      thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due      to an improper flare from a previous repair.

     Don



     

               From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52      AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP      Hydraulic line problems



--> Commander-List message posted      by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>



Ray      Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in      the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have      experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it      was probably due to improper fabrication.  I've seen many cases where      someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a      different flare angle than copper lines.  The tool you'll find at your      local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too      sharp an angle for aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You also      mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.  The      aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.  It also      "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.  You      may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.  During my commander      restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the      airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a very careful inspection of      all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.       Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or      missing.  If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out      supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.  Clean the lines      carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.  Even      small pits lead to failure.  Look for any areas where the lines are      chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas      immediately.  It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip;                          &n===============





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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

OK, thanks, Tylor.

  



   From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor  Hall

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:27 PM

To:  commander-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP  Hydraulic line problems

 

NICO, NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum.  .080 VS .0453

 Typo error.

 Tylor Hall

 

  On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		        Tylor,

   Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess    wall-thickness will have something to do with it, right?

   Nico

    



         From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)    [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor    Hall

Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:    Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

   

SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453    lb. per foot.    300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty    weight.

   

   Tylor Hall

   

      On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                 Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.  The failure      of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was      just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent      line.  The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the      compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the      fuselage.  That was the one due to an improper flare.  The      mechanic showed it to me.



     

               From: Tom Fisher <tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca (tfisher(at)commandergroup.bc.ca)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17      AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP      Hydraulic line problems



     In addition to the last failure      two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the      right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the      main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the      wires.  I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.  Once      that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol      proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may      occur in the future.

      

     Tom

     Formally C-GISS

     680FLP (Mr.RPM)

      	  Quote: 	
		         ----- Original Message        -----

       From: Donald Falik (dfalik(at)sbcglobal.net)

       To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

       Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32        AM

       Subject: Re: AC-680FLP        Hydraulic line problems

       



              I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.         I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area.  Boy was that        a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.  Shortly        thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due        to an improper flare from a previous repair.

       Don



       

                     From: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>

To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52        AM

Subject: Re: AC-680FLP        Hydraulic line problems



--> Commander-List message posted        by: Chris <cschuerm(at)cox.net (cschuerm(at)cox.net)>



Ray        Mansfield wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   In other words, is this going to be a problem in        the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have        experience here?


	


Ray,

If the line failed right at the flare, it        was probably due to improper fabrication.  I've seen many cases where        someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a        different flare angle than copper lines.  The tool you'll find at        your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes        too sharp an angle for aluminum.  This causes cracks to form.

You        also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.         The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.         It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with        age.  You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.         During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually        every hard line in the airplane for these reasons.  I'd suggest a        very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones        exposed in the nacelles.  Make sure they are well supported and that        the adel clamps are not loose or missing.  If the lines are allowed        to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue        cracking.  Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for        corrosion pitting.  Even small pits lead to failure.  Look for        any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming        loose) and address those areas immediately.  It's all just part of        being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip;                                   &n===============





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   [quote][b]

yourtcfg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Aluminum is just fine as a replacement.  After all original lasted 40+ years!!

 

 

 --

wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems

Folks,

Just make certain you use the right grade of Al. pipe.



If anybody wants to use stainless, the grades are as used in larger aircraft, but I would also suggest that, where possible, you use 1.5 degree taper compression fittings from Stratoflex or Aeroquip, again as per what has been used on 3000 psi systems since the '60's.



I can guarantee you will never have a leaking union at 1500psi ever again.



The shortcoming of the AN (37.5 degree) or SAE (45 degree as per autos) is that first surfaces to touch are the sealing surfaces, which works OK with soft material (most Al, annealed copper) but not so good steel, stainless or otherwise.



Re. corrosion of Al tubes, it is not always from the outside in, in my 500A, I have had two failures (pinholes) in low pressure return lines, at the fluid/air interface where a line is not always either full or empty. 



I would also suggest that most flexibles be replaced with teflon hose, ALL my fuel lines are stainless/teflon, overkill maybe, but they will never fail in normal service. This does not even require a 337 to do the substitute, they all meet the appropriate Mil. Spec ( or the new standard) for an application where rubber hose is used. 



In reality, Aero Commanders have had quite a few hydraulic problems over the years, we should be careful of the rose colored glasses, and even more careful with thorough routine inspections.



Here's one for thought, how far should you go in dismantling where there is no sign of failure, to inspect under Adel clamps, or fretting under a a union nut. I don't know the answer, I will watch the discussion with much interest.



Cheers,

Bill Hamilton.



[quote] yourtcfg(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 Aluminum is just fine as a replacement.  After all original lasted 40+ 

 years!!

 

 

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