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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
 |
|
Nobody likes an "intelligent donkey", Clint. : )
When it gets to 1000, I begin another 1000.
Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder, Clint. Hope you get
over it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lynn,
I guess you are right about all these cables and wires holding
things together in the most widely used engine used in LSA. 95% if
I am correct. The 912 ULS unlike the simple Jabiru 2200 with its
equil poor performance which can be verified in several aviation
magazines. Some say is sounds very nice.
P.S. What is going to happen when your Jabiru reaches 1000 hours,
we are all waiting in suspense.
Clint
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:13:49 -0500
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've
> seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to
> probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was
> it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade
> departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You
old-
> timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
> engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I wouldn't bet
> on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY
engine in
> place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
>
> > I do not think you need a cable around the engine on a Rotax
> > powered aircraft. I know of 2 props that came apart, the vibration
> > was so great that the carbs flew off and engine stopped. These
> > engines are not like the heavy direct drive aircraft engines.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> > > Subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
> > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:56:53 -0800
> > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> > >
> > >
> > <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>
> > >
> > > I have not had this happen on a "real" plane, but lots of times
> > on models. One of the local guys builds alot and I do the test
> > flights for him. When we go into electrics, he though that a good
> > friction fit would hold the engine on... I flew a few of his
> > variable CG airplanes till I started checking them over real good
> > before the first flight! He used a plug in harness on one and when
> > the motor came off, it came unplugged and was gone. She was
> > uncontrollable tail heavy and came in spinning hard. 2 others he
> > soldered the connections and when they came off it was just
> > exciting for a few till I got it settled down.. it was kinda like
> > chasing a crane load that starts swinging on ya. Both of those
> > planes I was able to land in one piece. I know the scale is
> > different, but I am with Lynn on this one. I would rather have a
> > engine swinging a little and have a chance to get it on the
ground,
> > than to have the engine depart completely and have no option other
> > than to try to bend!
> > > over in the cramped cockpit and kiss your (at)ss good by!
> > >
> > > --------
> > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > > Soldotna AK
> > > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > > 582 IVO IFA
> > > Full Lotus 1450
> > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> > >
> > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Read this topic online here:
> > >
> > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 73185#273185
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >==============
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ========== _-
> > =================================== _-
> > ============================================
> _=======
>
>
>
============================================================ _-
============================================================ _-
============================================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
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 |
clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
Hi Lynn C
This all started with your very limted knowledge of Rotax engines and some derogatory remarks. I do not know what you are trying to prove. I have flown Kitffox and Avid aircraft with Jabiru engines and they do not perform very well in slower aircraft with high drag. Not that the engine is bad C they probably work very well in airplanes like the Sonex or the KR2 which are much faster. I did some checking C and the torque at the prop flange of a 912ULS is higher then that of the Jabiru 3300. Also at the rpms that the engine is turning in a Rotax 912ULS is in a perfect range. This makes the engine/aircraft combination very efficient.. Rotax did a good job on that of that engine.
As a Tech Counselor and president of EAA Chapter C I give facts to people about the 912 engines C give them a ride and encourage them to to ride in a Jabiru powered aircraft. That is all it takes.
This is fact. P51 Mustangs used liquid cooling along with the same type gear reduction as the Rotax. What I don't like about the 912 is the price. They have no competition C and there is no other engine out there in that hp range with their record or performance
I know some Kitfox'ers with 2000 hours on there engines. No problems C no top end overhaul or anything. Liquid cooled engines are here to stay. Just look out your car window.
I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
Just being honest C and I have flown Jabiru powered aircraft and just want people to make good choices. Thre is a lot of money and time involved C almost impossible to change later C unless you have very deep pockets. The bottom line is. Do your homework.
Also RV4 builder C 80% complete. Yes C an aircooled O360.
With a closing remark C I would rather be an intelligent donkey then a smart ass.
Clint
| Quote: | From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
Date: Wed C 18 Nov 2009 11:45:12 -0500
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Nobody likes an "intelligent donkey" C Clint. : )
When it gets to 1000 C I begin another 1000.
Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder C Clint. Hope you get
over it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 17 C 2009 C at 11:08 PM C Clint Bazzill wrote:
> Hi Lynn C
>
> I guess you are right about all these cables and wires holding
> things together in the most widely used engine used in LSA. 95% if
> I am correct. The 912 ULS unlike the simple Jabiru 2200 with its
> equil poor performance which can be verified in several aviation
> magazines. Some say is sounds very nice.
>
>
> P.S. What is going to happen when your Jabiru reaches 1000 hours C
> we are all waiting in suspense.
>
> Clint
>
>
> > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > Date: Mon C 16 Nov 2009 20:13:49 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> >
> > Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly) C but from what I've
> > seen of 'em C there is enough wires C cables C hoses and fuel lines to
> > probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was
> > it Gary's? ......plane flyable C and let him land after one blade
> > departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You
> old-
> > timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
> > engine. Seriously though C I'm NOT bashing Rotax C but I wouldn't bet
> > on any amount of the normal wiring C hoses C etc. to hold ANY
> engine in
> > place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins.
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster C taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200 C #2062 C 814.7 hrs
> > Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > Status: flying (and learning)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 16 C 2009 C at 3:14 PM C Clint Bazzill wrote:
> >
> > > I do not think you need a cable around the engine on a Rotax
> > > powered aircraft. I know of 2 props that came apart C the vibration
> > > was so great that the carbs flew off and engine stopped. These
> > > engines are not like the heavy direct drive aircraft engines.
> > >
> > > Clint
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > > From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
> > > > Date: Mon C 16 Nov 2009 11:56:53 -0800
> > > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> > > >
> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"
> > > <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > I have not had this happen on a "real" plane C but lots of times
> > > on models. One of the local guys builds alot and I do the test
> > > flights for him. When we go into electrics C he though that a good
> > > friction fit would hold the engine on... I flew a few of his
> > > variable CG airplanes till I started checking them over real good
> > > before the first flight! He used a plug in harness on one and when
> > > the motor came off C it came unplugged and was gone. She was
> > > uncontrollable tail heavy and came in spinning hard. 2 others he
> > > soldered the connections and when they came off it was just
> > > exciting for a few till I got it settled down.. it was kinda like
> > > chasing a crane load that starts swinging on ya. Both of those
> > > planes I was able to land in one piece. I know the scale is
> > > different C but I am with Lynn on this one. I would rather have a
> > > engine swinging a little and have a chance to get it on the
> ground C
> > > than to have the engine depart completely and have no option other
> > > than to try to bend!
> > > > over in the cramped cockpit and kiss your (at)ss good by!
> > > >
> > > > --------
> > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > > > Soldotna AK
> > > > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > > > 582 IVO IFA
> > > > Full Lotus 1450
> > > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> > > >
> > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > >
> > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273185#273185
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >==============
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ========== _-
> > > =================================== _-
> > > ===================
> > _=======
> >
> >
> >
> ===========
> =================================== _-
> =====
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
I'll admit to the "limited knowledge" of the Rotax engine, but please
point out the derogatory remarks....I couldn't find them. This is as
close as I came to making a statement about the Rotax ( November 16,
2009 8:13:49 PM GMT-05:00 )
"Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've
seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to
probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was
it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade
departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You old-
timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I wouldn't bet
on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY engine in
place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins."
If anything, I made a derogatory remark about the Jabiru when I said:
"I put one on mine, John, just so I could stop worrying about that
aspect of flight and worry about other things. Of course, I fly
behind a Jabiru, so maybe it's justified. : )"
You said: "Liquid cooled engines are here to stay. Just look out
your car window."
When I look out my car window, I see air-cooled airplanes
flying.....I don't see cars flying (well, not too often, anyway)
You said: I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
It means I am getting near 1000 hours in my homebuilt airplane. I
believe it is pretty self-explanatory. Some time ago, the moderators
asked us to include in our signatures, some info about what Kitfox we
are building, or flying, and what kind of engine, etc. I chose to do
this so that others could see that if they persevered, they will be
flying, too. Some folks call it inspiration. Apparently it sticks in
your craw, otherwise why would you harp on it?
Once I get to 1000 hours, I can get one of those spiffy prop sleeves
from the EAA when I go to Oshkosh, and proudly display it. I don't
see a display of your pride in owning a Kitfox...do you? Or do you
just drop by here while vacationing from building your RV?
You said: "The bottom line is. Do your homework."
I did my homework, built my plane, chose a Jabiru engine because
that's what I wanted in it, flew it across the country, and
apparently the story was good enough to be printed in one of those
"aviation magazines" that you mentioned earlier.
If you'd like, I could autograph a copy and send it your way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 18, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lynn,
This all started with your very limted knowledge of Rotax engines
and some derogatory remarks. I do not know what you are trying to
prove. I have flown Kitffox and Avid aircraft with Jabiru engines
and they do not perform very well in slower aircraft with high
drag. Not that the engine is bad, they probably work very well in
airplanes like the Sonex or the KR2 which are much faster. I did
some checking, and the torque at the prop flange of a 912ULS is
higher then that of the Jabiru 3300. Also at the rpms that the
engine is turning in a Rotax 912ULS is in a perfect range. This
makes the engine/aircraft combination very efficient.. Rotax did
a good job on that of that engine.
As a Tech Counselor and president of EAA Chapter, I give facts to
people about the 912 engines, give them a ride and encourage them
to to ride in a Jabiru powered aircraft. That is all it takes.
This is fact. P51 Mustangs used liquid cooling along with the same
type gear reduction as the Rotax. What I don't like about the 912
is the price. They have no competition, and there is no other
engine out there in that hp range with their record or performance
I know some Kitfox'ers with 2000 hours on there engines. No
problems, no top end overhaul or anything. Liquid cooled engines
are here to stay. Just look out your car window.
I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
Just being honest, and I have flown Jabiru powered aircraft and
just want people to make good choices. Thre is a lot of money and
time involved, almost impossible to change later, unless you have
very deep pockets. The bottom line is. Do your homework.
Also RV4 builder, 80% complete. Yes, an aircooled O360.
With a closing remark, I would rather be an intelligent donkey then
a smart ass.
Clint
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:45:12 -0500
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
>
>
>
> Nobody likes an "intelligent donkey", Clint. : )
>
> When it gets to 1000, I begin another 1000.
>
> Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder, Clint. Hope you get
> over it.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
>
> > Hi Lynn,
> >
> > I guess you are right about all these cables and wires holding
> > things together in the most widely used engine used in LSA. 95% if
> > I am correct. The 912 ULS unlike the simple Jabiru 2200 with its
> > equil poor performance which can be verified in several aviation
> > magazines. Some say is sounds very nice.
> >
> >
> > P.S. What is going to happen when your Jabiru reaches 1000 hours,
> > we are all waiting in suspense.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> >
> > > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:13:49 -0500
> > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> > >
> > >
<lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
> > >
> > > Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what
I've
> > > seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel
lines to
> > > probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what
kept ....was
> > > it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade
> > > departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You
> > old-
> > > timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
> > > engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I
wouldn't bet
> > > on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY
> > engine in
> > > place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins.
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> > > Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > > Status: flying (and learning)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> > >
> > > > I do not think you need a cable around the engine on a Rotax
> > > > powered aircraft. I know of 2 props that came apart, the
vibration
> > > > was so great that the carbs flew off and engine stopped. These
> > > > engines are not like the heavy direct drive aircraft engines.
> > > >
> > > > Clint
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > > > From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:56:53 -0800
> > > > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > I have not had this happen on a "real" plane, but lots of
times
> > > > on models. One of the local guys builds alot and I do the test
> > > > flights for him. When we go into electrics, he though that
a good
> > > > friction fit would hold the engine on... I flew a few of his
> > > > variable CG airplanes till I started checking them over
real good
> > > > before the first flight! He used a plug in harness on one
and when
> > > > the motor came off, it came unplugged and was gone. She was
> > > > uncontrollable tail heavy and came in spinning hard. 2
others he
> > > > soldered the connections and when they came off it was just
> > > > exciting for a few till I got it settled down.. it was
kinda like
> > > > chasing a crane load that starts swinging on ya. Both of those
> > > > planes I was able to land in one piece. I know the scale is
> > > > different, but I am with Lynn on this one. I would rather
have a
> > > > engine swinging a little and have a chance to get it on the
> > ground,
> > > > than to have the engine depart completely and have no
option other
> > > > than to try to bend!
> > > > > over in the cramped cockpit and kiss your (at)ss good by!
> > > > >
> > > > > --------
> > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > > > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > > > > Soldotna AK
> > > > > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > > > > 582 IVO IFA
> > > > > Full Lotus 1450
> > > > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> > > > >
> > > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 73185#273185
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >==============
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ========== _-
> > > > =================================== _-
> > > > ===================
> > > _=======
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ===========
> > =================================== _-
> > =====
>
>
>
============================================================ _-
============================================================ _-
============================================================
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
akflyer
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
Now, now, Leni, I'm sure you mean well, but I've got a hunch that the
autographed copy would end up in the little house with the crescent
moon on the door, as a substitute for TP when you run out....I think
I know how you water-cooled guys think.
On the other hand, if they would ever change the rules for Sport
Pilots flying into/over Canada, I would be willing to hand deliver a
copy to you...that way I could see Alaska for myself, and perhaps
insure that the copy wouldn't end up in the crapper. Hey wait a
minute.....if I were to laminate it in plastic, that might insure
its safety from "other" uses. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 19, 2009, at 12:23 AM, akflyer wrote:
| Quote: |
Hey Lynn, I'll take an autographed copy!
signed
a 2 stroke WATER COOLED Junky 
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 73679#273679
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
Hey Lynn, if Clint doesn't want that autographed magazine I'll take it!
do not archive
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 592-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
(firmly attached to airframe with wires, hoses, cables and restraint cable.)
--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 6:40 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
I'll admit to the "limited knowledge" of the Rotax engine, but please point out the derogatory remarks....I couldn't find them. This is as close as I came to making a statement about the Rotax ( November 16, 2009 8:13:49 PM GMT-05:00 )
"Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You old-timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I wouldn't bet on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY engine in place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins."
If anything, I made a derogatory remark about the Jabiru when I said:
"I put one on mine, John, just so I could stop worrying about that aspect of flight and worry about other things. Of course, I fly behind a Jabiru, so maybe it's justified. : )"
You said: "Liquid cooled engines are here to stay. Just look out your car window."
When I look out my car window, I see air-cooled airplanes flying.....I don't see cars flying (well, not too often, anyway)
You said: I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
It means I am getting near 1000 hours in my homebuilt airplane. I believe it is pretty self-explanatory. Some time ago, the moderators asked us to include in our signatures, some info about what Kitfox we are building, or flying, and what kind of engine, etc. I chose to do this so that others could see that if they persevered, they will be flying, too. Some folks call it inspiration. Apparently it sticks in your craw, otherwise why would you harp on it?
Once I get to 1000 hours, I can get one of those spiffy prop sleeves from the EAA when I go to Oshkosh, and proudly display it. I don't see a display of your pride in owning a Kitfox...do you? Or do you just drop by here while vacationing from building your RV?
You said: "The bottom line is. Do your homework."
I did my homework, built my plane, chose a Jabiru engine because that's what I wanted in it, flew it across the country, and apparently the story was good enough to be printed in one of those "aviation magazines" that you mentioned earlier.
If you'd like, I could autograph a copy and send it your way. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
On Nov 18, 2009, at 2:07 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Lynn,
This all started with your very limted knowledge of Rotax engines and some derogatory remarks. I do not know what you are trying to prove. I have flown Kitffox and Avid aircraft with Jabiru engines and they do not perform very well in slower aircraft with high drag. Not that the engine is bad, they probably work very well in airplanes like the Sonex or the KR2 which are much faster. I did some checking, and the torque at the prop flange of a 912ULS is higher then that of the Jabiru 3300. Also at the rpms that the engine is turning in a Rotax 912ULS is in a perfect range. This makes the engine/aircraft combination very efficient.. Rotax did a good job on that of that engine.
As a Tech Counselor and president of EAA Chapter, I give facts to people about the 912 engines, give them a ride and encourage them to to ride in a Jabiru powered aircraft. That is all it takes.
This is fact. P51 Mustangs used liquid cooling along with the same type gear reduction as the Rotax. What I don't like about the 912 is the price. They have no competition, and there is no other engine out there in that hp range with their record or performance
I know some Kitfox'ers with 2000 hours on there engines. No problems, no top end overhaul or anything. Liquid cooled engines are here to stay. Just look out your car window.
I still don't know what the countdown to 1000 means.
Just being honest, and I have flown Jabiru powered aircraft and just want people to make good choices. Thre is a lot of money and time involved, almost impossible to change later, unless you have very deep pockets. The bottom line is. Do your homework.
Also RV4 builder, 80% complete. Yes, an aircooled O360.
With a closing remark, I would rather be an intelligent donkey then a smart ass.
Clint
> From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)
> Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:45:12 -0500
> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
>
> Nobody likes an "intelligent donkey", Clint. : )
>
> When it gets to 1000, I begin another 1000.
>
> Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder, Clint. Hope you get
> over it.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Rotec TBI-40 injection
> Status: flying (and learning)
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2009, at 11:08 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
>
> > Hi Lynn,
> >
> > I guess you are right about all these cables and wires holding
> > things together in the most widely used engine used in LSA. 95% if
> > I am correct. The 912 ULS unlike the simple Jabiru 2200 with its
> > equil poor performance which can be verified in several aviation
> > magazines. Some say is sounds very nice.
> >
> >
> > P.S. What is going to happen when your Jabiru reaches 1000 hours,
> > we are all waiting in suspense.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> >
> > > From: lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:13:49 -0500
> > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
> > >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
> > >
> > > Not to blatantly bash the Rotax (just subtly), but from what I've
> > > seen of 'em, there is enough wires, cables, hoses and fuel lines to
> > > probably hold the engine in place. I think that's what kept ....was
> > > it Gary's? ......plane flyable, and let him land after one blade
> > > departed and the resultant vibration shook the engine loose. You
> > old-
> > > timers will recall who I mean. I'm pretty sure that was a Rotax
> > > engine. Seriously though, I'm NOT bashing Rotax, but I wouldn't bet
> > > on any amount of the normal wiring, hoses, etc. to hold ANY
> > engine in
> > > place once the vibration of a less-than-complete prop begins.
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
> > > Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
> > > Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
> > > Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> > > Rotec TBI-40 injection
> > > Status: flying (and learning)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> > >
> > > > I do not think you need a cable around the engine on a Rotax
> > > > powered aircraft. I know of 2 props that came apart, the vibration
> > > > was so great that the carbs flew off and engine stopped. These
> > > > engines are not like the heavy direct drive aircraft engines.
> > > >
> > > > Clint
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable
> > > > > From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)
> > > > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:56:53 -0800
> > > > > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
> > > > >
> > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer"
> > > > <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)>
> > > > >
> > > > > I have not had this happen on a "real" plane, but lots of times
> > > > on models. One of the local guys builds alot and I do the test
> > > > flights for him. When we go into electrics, he though that a good
> > > > friction fit would hold the engine on... I flew a few of his
> > > > variable CG airplanes till I started checking them over real good
> > > > before the first flight! He used a plug in harness on one and when
> > > > the motor came off, it came unplugged and was gone. She was
> > > > uncontrollable tail heavy and came in spinning hard. 2 others he
> > > > soldered the connections and when they came off it was just
> > > > exciting for a few till I got it settled down.. it was kinda like
> > > > chasing a crane load that starts swinging on ya. Both of those
> > > > planes I was able to land in one piece. I know the scale is
> > > > different, but I am with Lynn on this one. I would rather have a
> > > > engine swinging a little and have a chance to get it on the
> > ground,
> > > > than to have the engine depart completely and have no option other
> > > > than to try to bend!
> > > > > over in the cramped cockpit and kiss your (at)ss good by!
> > > > >
> > > > > --------
> > > > > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> > > > > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
> > > > > Soldotna AK
> > > > > Avid "C" / Mk IV
> > > > > 582 IVO IFA
> > > > > Full Lotus 1450
> > > > > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
> > > > >
> > > > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273185#273185
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >==============
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > ========== _-
> > > > =================================== _-
> > > > ===================
> > > _=======
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ===========
> > ========== _-
> > =====
>
>
>
=================Support m/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution[b]http://www.matrrums.matronics.com/" ======
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akflyer
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
| Lynn Matteson wrote: | Now, now, Leni, I'm sure you mean well, but I've got a hunch that the
autographed copy would end up in the little house with the crescent
moon on the door, as a substitute for TP when you run out....I think
I know how you water-cooled guys think.
On the other hand, if they would ever change the rules for Sport
Pilots flying into/over Canada, I would be willing to hand deliver a
copy to you...that way I could see Alaska for myself, and perhaps
insure that the copy wouldn't end up in the crapper. Hey wait a
minute.....if I were to laminate it in plastic, that might insure
its safety from "other" uses. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 19, 2009, at 12:23 AM, akflyer wrote:
| Quote: |
Hey Lynn, I'll take an autographed copy!
signed
a 2 stroke WATER COOLED Junky
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
|
|
Nope, would never happen... I prefer Charmin!
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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... |
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
OK, boys, let's start the bidding....
Seriously, I didn't know what to think when the EAA Chapter up in
Mason, MI asked me to give a talk about my trip out west, showing my
pictures, etc., but I was really blown away when one of the members
asked me to autograph a copy of the magazine (they had ordered in a
stack of them just for the occasion). I'd never been asked for an
autograph before and was quite flattered. Just think, in all my years
of playing pond hockey, racing cars as an amateur, and drinking and
whoring around, it took learning to fly an airplane to achieve
stardom.....yeah, RIGHT!!! (surely I jest)
I will say one thing, Marco...it'd be easier to deliver it to you
than try to fly under the radar up to Leni's neck of the woods.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 814.7 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive
On Nov 19, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:
| Quote: | Hey Lynn, if Clint doesn't want that autographed magazine I'll take
it!
do not archive
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 592-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
(firmly attached to airframe with wires, hoses, cables and
restraint cable.)
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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n85ae
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
If you read the book Voyager by Dick Rutan they lost a prop blade and the
engine unmounted itself and was left hanging in the cowl by a restraint
cable. Another Kitfox builder in Canada who used to be on the list long
ago tore an engine loose as well when he lost a blade. The cable will leave
you with your weight and balance intact.
Regards,
Jeff
N85AE Series 5, IO-240B
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
|
|
I had forgotten about the Voyager incident. You are right! I started this thread several days back because I wanted to find out if there has ever been a proven case of an engine restraint cable keeping a Kitfox flyable following a prop failure. There have been several close calls but engines have stayed onboard with and without a cable restraint. But, I think I am choosing to use a cable. Those that survived without, I am considering lucky.
I have built and flown models that had prop failures. One of them lost a blade and the engine mount came from together and the engine departed to earth. The aircraft was a hand full to fly from that point on. With an extremely tail heavy situation, it stalls immediately and falls in a tail slide until the nose eventually falls through at which time it stalls immediately again. The leaf like antics are almost impossible to deal with by any control input. On the last stall before impact, you may be able to plant it with down elevator input just as it begins to stall the last time. My flight ended with a high speed splat belly first. Scaled up to actual size it probably would not have been survivable by the pilot. The model's wing broke in half from the impact.
I think a broken prop that results in an un-mounted engine can not continue to run for more than a few seconds because the flywheel effect of the prop carrying the crank shaft through it's rotation is lost. Also the lack of a solid mount for the engine (it isn't mounted at all) cancels every rotational pulse from the pistons. Of course usually, it disconnects itself from life support in just a few moments anyway as we have discussed. Ironically, the troublesome rubber carb mounts on the 912 may actually act as fuses to prevent engine separation but, I think I can stand the ugly restraint cable too.
John
Columbus, Ohio
Outback, 912
In a message dated 11/19/2009 5:33:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n85ae(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae(at)yahoo.com>
If you read the book Voyager by Dick Rutan they lost a prop blade and the
engine unmounted itself and was left hanging in the cowl by a restraint
cable. Another Kitfox builder in Canada who used to be on the list long
ago tore an engine loose as well when he lost a blade. The cable will leave
you with your weight and balance intact.
Regards,
Jeff
N85AE Series 5, IO-240B
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=273787#273787===============================================
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lowandslow1(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
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There's a good source for proper cable restraint on the Formula F1 rules page C with diagrams C etc. It is for a 0-200/C-90 C but the system can be changed to fit the engine used. Pages 15-20.
http://www.if1airracing.com/library/IF1%20Technical%20Rules%203-14-07.pdf
Andy
Hotmail: Trusted email/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ ' target='_new'>Sign up now. [quote][b]
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Fox5flyer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
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Good link, Andy. I've been watching the on and off debate about safety cables for years and I'm finally beginning to lean toward installing one. I like the idea about using nicopress sleeves. If I need to remove the engine it's a simple matter of just cutting the cable and replacing it with a new one. Maybe this winter during annual.
Thanks,
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: Engine Restraint Cable |
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Andy,
This is exactly what I have been trying to find. Thanks for posting it. I was about to put out a request to "Playtex Cross Your Heart" for design advice. Now that I have this info, I am going to keep my jugs secured!
John
Columbus, Ohio
Outback, 912
In a message dated 11/20/2009 2:09:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lowandslow1(at)hotmail.com writes:
[quote][b]
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