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dihedral & or twist

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frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing? If  

so what were the results?

I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has  

already tried it and

its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

55161

vincenic1(at)embarqmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Frank,



Richard Pike and I have both put dihedral into Firestar II airplanes and 

have discussed this in the archives.  Please search the KOLB list with 

the search term dihedral.  The descriptions listed below were posted in 

Aug 1998.  Please feel free to ask any additional questions you like.  I 

have about 500 hours on my Firestar II with most flown with significant 

dihedral as described in the notes.  I like it with significant dihedral.



#6349 - Primary description of results

#6350 - Comment on cross wind capability

#6392 - Comment on pitch control with spring trim for flying hands-off



#27789 -



#45421 - additional recent comments by Richard Pike



Vince Nicely





frank.goodnight wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <frank.goodnight(at)att.net>



 Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing? If 

 so what were the results?

 I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has 

 already tried it and

 its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

 Frank Goodnight

 Firestar2

 55161





 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:53 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Thank you Vincent, for pointing me in the right direction tho find the  

answer to my questions.

I think I need some instruction in useing the archives . The numbers  

you gave were especially helpful.

Frank Goodnight

firestar2

On Nov 25, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Vincent Nicely wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 Frank,

 Richard Pike and I have both put dihedral into Firestar II airplanes  

 and have discussed this in the archives.  Please search the KOLB  

 list with the search term dihedral.  The descriptions listed below  

 were posted in Aug 1998.  Please feel free to ask any additional  

 questions you like.  I have about 500 hours on my Firestar II with  

 most flown with significant dihedral as described in the notes.  I  

 like it with significant dihedral.

 #6349 - Primary description of results

 #6350 - Comment on cross wind capability

 #6392 - Comment on pitch control with spring trim for flying hands-off

 #27789 -

 #45421 - additional recent comments by Richard Pike

 Vince Nicely

 frank.goodnight wrote:

> 

> >

>

> Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing?  

> If so what were the results?

> I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has  

> already tried it and

> its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

> Frank Goodnight

> Firestar2

> 55161

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Frank



When I first built I built the wing straight, per plans.   During assembly I

set the wings straight while attaching at the inboard end.   Then from

straight, installed a 1 1/2 inch spacer under the outboard rib on each wing,

again per plans.   When test flying I would put the plane into a 30 deg

bank, and let go of the stick.  The plane would continue to roll into a

steeper bank.  (negative roll stability)



A couple years later I took the time to mount the lift struts again,  this

time I put in 3 inch spacers under the end ribs.  Now with a 30 deg bank the

plane will stay at the same bank angle when I let go of the stick.  (neutral

roll stability)  



At this point I am only guessing but if I were to have put in 4 to 4 1/2

spacers under each end rib when setting the lift struts, I would suppose

that when letting go of the stick in a 30 deg bank that the plane would roll

back to level. ( positive roll stability)   And would have been able to make

directional turns and banks using only the rudder.



Boyd Young

Kolb mkIII



Ps, happy thanks giving to all on the list.



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


	




Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing? If  

so what were the results?

I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has  

already tried it and

its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

55161

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: dihedral & or twist

 	  frank.goodnight(at)att.ne wrote: 	
		  Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing? If  

so what were the results?

I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has  

already tried it and

its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

55161 	




Vince has already mentioned this, here's what it looks like - (the farmer who leases the field the airstrip sits in was baling hay that day)



N582EF will fly hands off, you can herd it around quite well with rudder only.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



(rebuilding N582EF, cage is almost done)

P1040943 (Large).JPG

Description:

Filesize:

138.86 KB

Viewed:

7316 Time(s)

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: dihedral & or twist

Here's another view of the FSII that shows the dihedral -



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

P1020312 (Large).JPG

Description:

Filesize:

76.14 KB

Viewed:

7309 Time(s)

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:05 am Post subject: Re: dihedral & or twist

Richard,



Change of subject triggered by your great photo of the FSII in profile. 



Did you happen to document any changes in airspeed or power requirements with and without the wheel pants? 



Most Kolbs fly without them but I'm considering downsizing my Slingshot 800x6 tires to 600x6 and installing wheel pants. I plan to do that and document the effects of reducing tire size and then adding the wheel pants. Since it is stored for the winter, I won't know the results until next spring. For what it is worth, with the big tires my top level speed is 95 mph TAS and I normally cruise at 80 mph at about 72% power when going somewhere and about 65-70 mph and 50-55% power, otherwise. I'm hoping to get another 3 mph at cruise with smaller tires and hopefully another 3 mph with wheel pants.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

> Did you happen to document any changes in airspeed or power requirements 

with and without the wheel pants?

 > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY


	




Thom R/Gang:



Initially, I flew my Firestar with wheel pants, then removed them.  Based on 

my primitive methods of measurement, I never could tell any difference in 

air speed.



What I could tell was the additional weight which was being added during 

ground ops at my airstrip where the cows like the airstrip as much as I do. 

The wheel pants collected cow manure and dry grass in the rear section of 

the pants.  When I took them off, they must have weighed 50 lbs a piece.



The main reason I installed them was to try for some protection from the cow 

crap.  Didn't work though.  When the tire hit a cow pie it shot the crap out 

to each side.  Of course, in an open cockpit, the cow crap would 

occasionally hit its mark, me.



Happy Thanksgiving everyone.  I am having my Thanksgiving dinner at the farm 

with my friends where I keep my mkIII.  Couldn't think of a better place to 

do it.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: Dihedral & or twist

To all Kolbers Happy thanksgiving,



Also, thanks to all the people that responded to my request for info.  

The list is a wonderful

repository of knowledge and experience for all things Kolb related.  

After considering

what you guys had to say , I plan to add dihedral before the trip to  

M.V. this spring.



Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

55161

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

John , happy thanksgiving to you and yours,great story about the boots on your Kolb !enjoy the day, we have a lot to be thankful for !your friend,

Chris Davis

KXP 503 492 hrs

Glider Pilot

Disabled from crash building Firefly  



 

   From: John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, November 26, 2009 9:08:34 AM

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: dihedral & or twist



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		   Did you happen to document any changes in airspeed or power requirements with and without the wheel pants?

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY


	




Thom R/Gang:



Initially, I flew my Firestar with wheel pants, then removed them.  Based on my primitive methods of measurement, I never could tell any difference in air speed.



What I could tell was the additional weight  which was being added during ground ops at my airstrip where the cows like the airstrip as much as I do. The wheel pants collected cow manure and dry grass in the rear section of the pants.  When I took them off, they must have weighed 50 lbs a piece.



The main reason I installed them was to try for some protection from the cow crap.  Didn't work though.  When the tire hit a cow pie it shot the crap out to each side.  Of course, in an open cockpit, the cow crap would occasionally hit its mark, me.



Happy Thanksgiving everyone.  I am having my Thanksgiving dinner at the farm with my friends where I keep my mkIII.  Couldn't think of a better place to do it.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, a;       (And Get Some AWESOME sp;   * The Builder's Bookstore www.homenbsp;                           -Matt Dralle, List ==================



           [quote][b]

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Boyd,

I may have missed something but based upon the information you posted 

below, it sounds like you may have either added twist to the wing or 

changed the incidence.  I may be misinterpreting what you posted.  I 

would think to add dihedral would you need to lengthen or shorten the 

struts, lifting or lowering the wings postilion referenced to the 

root attachment or raise or lower both wing root to the fuselage 

attachment points.

jerb



At 02:38 PM 11/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Frank



When I first built I built the wing straight, per plans.   During assembly I

set the wings straight while attaching at the inboard end.   Then from

straight, installed a 1 1/2 inch spacer under the outboard rib on each wing,

again per plans.   When test flying I would put the plane into a 30 deg

bank, and let go of the stick.  The plane would continue to roll into a

steeper bank.  (negative roll stability)



A couple years later I took the time to mount the lift struts again,  this

time I put in 3 inch spacers under the end ribs.  Now with a 30 deg bank the

plane will stay at the same bank angle when I let go of the stick.  (neutral

roll stability)



At this point I am only guessing but if I were to have put in 4 to 4 1/2

spacers under each end rib when setting the lift struts, I would suppose

that when letting go of the stick in a 30 deg bank that the plane would roll

back to level. ( positive roll stability)   And would have been able to make

directional turns and banks using only the rudder.



Boyd Young

Kolb mkIII



Ps, happy thanks giving to all on the list.



 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Has anyone tried putting dihedral and or twist in a firestar wing? If

so what were the results?

I'm thinking about adding some dihedral to mine,but if someone has

already tried it and

its not worth the time , effort ,and money-------------.enough said.

Frank Goodnight

Firestar2

55161

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: Re: dihedral & or twist

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  Richard,



Change of subject triggered by your great photo of the FSII in profile. 



Did you happen to document any changes in airspeed or power requirements with and without the wheel pants? 



Most Kolbs fly without them but I'm considering downsizing my Slingshot 800x6 tires to 600x6 and installing wheel pants. I plan to do that and document the effects of reducing tire size and then adding the wheel pants. Since it is stored for the winter, I won't know the results until next spring. For what it is worth, with the big tires my top level speed is 95 mph TAS and I normally cruise at 80 mph at about 72% power when going somewhere and about 65-70 mph and 50-55% power, otherwise. I'm hoping to get another 3 mph at cruise with smaller tires and hopefully another 3 mph with wheel pants. 	




When I slipped a piece of streamline strut fairing plastic over each landing gear leg of the MKIII, that made a difference, it noticeably changed the trim. Once I had eliminated a source of drag down low, the airplane wanted to nose up. Did not do any before and after, with/without tests, but the difference was very obvious. 



Several years ago, changed the original cable brakes to real hydraulic brakes, and had to lose the wheel pants, couldn't figure out a way to make a decent bracket. Did not notice or document any before/after cruise or top end speeds, but didn't notice anything. Using 15X600X6 tires. Removing the wheel pants did not seem to change the trim at all, for what it's worth.



My point is, if it makes a difference in drag that far away from the airplanes center of drag, you ought to notice it in nose up/nose down trim.



I have made a bunch of little streamline mods to the MKIII, and am not sure how much they add up, but it makes sense that it ought to help.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

At 08:53 AM 11/27/2009, Richard Pike wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  When I slipped a piece of streamline strut fairing plastic over each landing gear leg of the MKIII, that made a difference,..

 Several years ago, changed the original cable brakes to real hydraulic brakes, and had to lose the wheel pants, couldn't figure out a way to make a decent bracket. Did not notice or document any before/after cruise or top end speeds, but didn't notice  anything... 	


 Wheel pants are funny; you think they'd make a difference because they're steamlined, but they're also larger than the bare tire and the opening where the tire sticks through lets air swirl and eddy around.  They look nice, but many people have reported an increase in drag.



 I had them on my T-Craft.  Put them on in the Spring and took them off each winter so they wouldn't cake up with snow and mud.  Never noticed any difference.



 -Dana

 

 --

  Mr. Cole's Axiom:

 The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: dihedral & or twist

Richard's point about pitching moment change due to change in drag vertically distant from the center of drag is a good one. I'll keep that in mind. My expectations for some speed improvement are based on experience with a Titan Tornado and Rans S6, both of which are faster than the Slingshot with comparable power. It could all be for naught on the Slingshot but I won't know until I try, which will be in the spring. Winter is beginning its dreary advance near the Great Lakes.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: dihedral & or twist

Jerb  

   

I suppose I could have been more clear.  

   

In the instructions,  when making the inboard attachments the wing was to be straight and level after putting the cage at the specified attitude,  the outboard end of the wing was to be supported by a brace under the end rib. The front and rear attach points were to be adjusted in and out, up and down, so that the wing was perpendicular with the cage and boom tube.  After setting the inboard attach points the only other adjustment was to adjust the length of the lift strut.  The factory setting was to put a 1 1/2 inch block under the end rib and on top of the brace  used to position the wing,  this would set the dihedral of each wing panel.   When I re did the set up I left the inboard attach points the same and lengthen the lift struts by installing new lift strut end attach fittings drilled in a different location.  I used 3 inch block on top of the support under the end rib instead of the 1 1/2 called for in the instructions.  So in effect I doubled the amount of dihedral  as called for in the plans.  I did not change the incidence (angle of attack) or twist ( washout or wash in ) of the wing.  

   

References to the end rib should have been the end rib at the wing tip, not the ribs at the center of the wing.  

   

Hope this clarifies the adjustment.  

   

Boyd  

   

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   

   
	


   

   

   

   

Boyd,  

I may have missed something but based upon the information you posted   

below, it sounds like you may have either added twist to the wing or   

changed the incidence.  I may be misinterpreting what you posted.  I   

would think to add dihedral would you need to lengthen or shorten the   

struts, lifting or lowering the wings postilion referenced to the   

root attachment or raise or lower both wing root to the fuselage   

attachment points.  

jerb  

   

At 02:38 PM 11/25/2009, you wrote:  

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "b  young" <by0ung(at)brigham.net>  

   

Frank  

   

When I first built I built the wing straight, per plans.   During assembly I  

set the wings straight while attaching at the inboard end.   Then from  

straight, installed a 1 1/2 inch spacer under the outboard rib on each wing,  

again per plans.   When test flying I would put the plane into a 30 deg  

bank, and let go of the stick.  The plane would continue to roll into a  

steeper bank.  (negative roll stability)  

   

        	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

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