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$352 part II

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sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: $352 part II

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:31 pm; edited 2 times in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: $352 part II

Hi Sabrina,



I think your legal team is much better than mine (mine is mostly mad 

at me - just like much of the rest of the world).  That said, I am 

aware of a general legal principle that might be interesting 

here.  It is:  You can't sign away your legal rights.



Even if you could commit yourself to not claiming some kind of 

liability on Zenith's part for any design flaws, you can't commit 

your heirs to anything.



I guess my point is that if Zenith and/or AMD want us to sign a 

generally worthless agreement then why bother arguing about it?  I 

don't have any plans to claim that Zenith has any legal 

responsibility for my behavior and the possible negative outcomes 

that come from my choices.  If they are merely making sure I 

understand there is a possible danger in flying my plane with the new 

upgraded design (just as there was before the upgrade) then that is OK by me.



Another view of this is that the meaningless agreement might indeed 

stop some greedy customer or heir from starting proceedings to fill 

their pockets from Zenith's misfortune.  To that end I say: Bravo!



Paul

XL upgrade on order.

At 08:31 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ordering the upgrade package requires that the owner execute a new 

waiver of liability as to the design.  This is important for those 

of us who ordered the kit BEFORE the first structural  failure.  We 

are now aware of design issues and are executing a new waiver that 

includes a waiver of our and our family's rights.



 >From what I understand, this requirement of a new waiver is NOT in 

 the spirit of cooperation Zenith pledged to the FAA and the 

 NTSB.   If anything, it discourages compliance with the SAIB.



Of all the ADs I have received on my C150L, I don't remember any 

manufacture requiring me to waive liability BEFORE they would ship 

the required replacement part.   A recent example would be the new 

Cessna rudder stops, others include new Slick parts, Bendix ignition 

switch, and seat rails.



Comments?

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: Re: $352 part II

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Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

wjones(at)brazoriainet.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: $352 part II

I think Zenith should send out revisions to the drawings for the upgrade to 

all plans holders .The upgrade can't be more than some angle and a small 

amount of  Aluminum.As a plans builder all I need are the drawings . Wade

---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: $352 part II

What about the scratch builders? I have built all the parts myself and one  wing is almost finished.

  

 Jeff

  [quote][b]

zman601xl(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: $352 part II

Here is a thought to ponder.The Zenith 601XL demo aircraft is at least 7 years old with I believe over 1000 flt hrs.Why haven't the wings failed?

 

   

 

   

 

  --

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: $352 part II

It might just take all the planet's and stars to align just right for it to  happen. who the hell knows but we are where we are so the sooner we get it done  the faster we can get back to flying.

  [quote][b]

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: $352 part II

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Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: $352 part II

ZBAG saw an "opportunity to possibly influence the [NTSB]'s direction" and  took to it with great zeal.  



  

  

 Sabrina

  

 If you don't think ZBAG should have pushed for changes and you don't think  there was a problem then put your money where your mouth is and fly without the  mods.... I am sick and tired of hearing ZBAG this and ZBAG that. If you don't  think ZBAG was right then why were you so fast to order the upgrade?

  

 Lets just get on with the mods and stop the name calling and finger  pointing we are past that now.

  

 Jeff

  

  

  [quote][b]

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: $352 part II

What happens when upgraded XLs are flown beyond the new limits and  crash?

  

  

 BTW what "NEW" limits are you referring to the ones that were stated when  we all bought our kits? 

  

 If you do mean that then you are also saying the "NEW" limits were to high  to begin with.

  [quote][b]

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: $352 part II

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:34 pm; edited 2 times in total

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: $352 part II

On Thursday 26 November 2009 10:31, Sabrina  wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ordering the upgrade package requires that the owner execute a new waiver

 of liability as to the design.  This is important for those of us who

 ordered the kit BEFORE the first structural  failure.  We are now aware of

 design issues and are executing a new waiver that includes a waiver of our

 and our family's rights.

 >From what I understand, this requirement of a new waiver is NOT in the

 > spirit of cooperation Zenith pledged to the FAA and the NTSB.   If

 > anything, it discourages compliance with the SAIB.

 Of all the ADs I have received on my C150L, I don't remember any

 manufacture requiring me to waive liability BEFORE they would ship the

 required replacement part.   A recent example would be the new Cessna

 rudder stops, others include new Slick parts, Bendix ignition switch, and

 seat rails.

 Comments?

It seems to me that this is bargaining in bad faith. My positive impression of 

Zenith is being erroded, one step at a time.

I bought a kit from them in good faith. If I had the time, tools, and patience 

to fabricate the aircraft from scratch, there would have been no reason to 

buy a kit.

But if I'd had time, tools, and patience then, I wouldn't need the 

modification kit now. I'd just build the parts, and done with it. Yet I must 

make the changes to fly the aircraft. It seems to me I am being forced to 

make another agreement in order to get what they initially advertised I would 

get.

I'd call that bad faith. 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: $352 part II

Frankly, Sabrina, my feeling is that if an aircraft needs a chute installed to 

be safe, it probably isn't an aircraft I should be flying in the first place.



I've also wondered the same thing: what happens when the first modified 

aircraft fails?



On Thursday 26 November 2009 14:57, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It has been properly loaded and flown within limits its entire life.



 ZBAG saw an "opportunity to possibly influence the [NTSB]'s direction" and

 took to it with great zeal.



 What happens when upgraded XLs are flown beyond the new limits and crash?



 Will Zenith then issue Upgrade V2: whole aircraft chutes like my hero Scott

 Laughlin uses?  (He was the first XL builder to take the time to really

 start me off on the right track.)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 74983#274983




	


-- 

=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager



     Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

         Do not drink and derive.

=============================================

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: $352 part II

Hey Sabrina,



Wanna trade moms?



Paul

do not archive



At 01:51 PM 11/26/2009, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  my parents ordered the upgrade kit as a Thanksgiving present without 

telling me, just like my mom bought me a Jaguar XK8 convertible to 

keep me off the Harley  (I can hear you laughing Ben!)

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: $352 part II

You have spunk ma'am... It would have loved for you to present to the MISO your I beam idea.. The concept is sound and they probably would have granted you a waiver to do it.. As, for the Jag I think your parents have their head on straight and driving is for sure safer then a street bike. I admit I am very biased though. I lost three roommates to street bike accidents in a sixth month period back when I was 20 or so. They all where the cars fault and those guys were pretty defensive riders. Didn't do them a bit of good. !  I was a past amatuer motocross champion back in the early 70's so dirt bikes don't scare me.. I will fly my 801 to 18,000agl wide open without a parachute but no way will I get on a street bike.  

Ps... I am not laughing,,, personally I am your biggest fan but I will continue to ride you hard to push you to your limit of experimenting. You are ok...... for a girl <GGG> 

and to not let this get out that I admire your intelligence here comes the      do not archive thing. 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



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