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kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Wow, I didn't realize Osceola was such a popular name I guess Chief Osceola was a popular Indian,

    I wanted to comment on Michel's post about not wanting to lose the drooping wingtips I didn't lose mine when I cut the wings shorter I just remounted them on the next rib it was pretty simple really I just used 1"x1/16 alum flat and screwed and glued it to the rib flange and then the tips attach to that just like it was before and I'm not really sure it would save you in a ground loop anyway my plane has damage from what looks to have been a ground loop.

      it has a bend under the seat where the limit cables attach and the left wing has been rebuilt from about four feet in from the tip and that flapperon has some wrinkles in it at about four feet in as well all this and the plane had 8 hours on it when I got it must have been a rough 8 hrs.

   I hear alot about ground loops with these planes but in my 60 hours flying it I have not even had a close call it seems very stable on the ground but maybe this is because of the grove gear.

_________________
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

I'd have to say almost uncertainly it was because of the Grove  

gear....a wider stance, and a bit lower too, if I'm not mistaken.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 818.9 hrs

Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying (and learning)

do not archive



On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:26 PM, kenjrichter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net>



    I hear alot about ground loops with these planes but in my 60  

 hours flying it I have not even had a close call it seems very  

 stable on the ground but maybe this is because of the grove gear.



 --------

 Ken Richter

 Osceola,Wi

 model 3 speedster

 582/GSC prop/Grove gear





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 75828#275828

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Ken, If you are marginal on elevator authority, did you consider gap seals or vortex generators under the horiz stabilizer?

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:08 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

 

Lyle, I forgot to mention that the landings were better I used to run out of elevator authority before the plane was done flying making it hard to land but now thats better as well.



Ken Richter

 model 3 speedster

582/GSC prop/Grove gear



 Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275669#275669

  

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[b]

kenjrichter

Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.



Thanks

_________________
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Ken, If you decide on VG's let me know. The ones I bought were recommended to me and I was very happy with price and the product.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582

 Rockford, IL

 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:34 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

 

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.



Thanks



--------

Ken Richter

Osceola,Wi

model 3 speedster

582/GSC prop/Grove gear

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275873#275873



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 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

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 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

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[b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

What brand are you recommending?  and What results have to had ? 



I have tested several brands and the best bang for the buck are www.stolspeed.com ones.  They come with adhesive tape. I think about 100$ for entire set. 



Model 2 s  do run out of elevator sooner than the model IV I will say. I tried then on bottom of horiz stab ahead of the hinge line on model IV and had no change. I do have tape on my IV elevator for about 4 years and I forget if it  changed anything.  Plane works awesome just look at the videos.  They speak louder than words.

[quote="Pat Reilly"]Ken, If you decide on VG's let me know. The ones I bought were recommended to me and I was very happy with price and the product.

 ï¿½

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582

 Rockford, IL

 On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:34 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter>

 

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.



Thanks



--------

Ken Richter

Osceola,Wi

model 3 speedster

582/GSC prop/Grove gear

 



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275873#275873



 List Fund Raiser. ï¿½Click on

 -= ï¿½ ï¿½ * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com

 omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com

  http:/r generous support!

 ronics List Features Navigator to browse

 s.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ==============



[b]

_________________
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Being a cheap sort of guy, how hard can vg's be to  make?  Anybody done that?

  

 Pete

  

 [quote]   ---

skyflyte(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: kitfox 3

I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator.  It worked very well! 

Mike 

Model II - 582 - #490 



---

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Mike, Did you heat form the .016 Lexan? What fabrication methods did you use? I was contemplating fabricating my own for the underside of the hoiz. stab. but ended up purchasing the VG's to save a little time.

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

  

 Pat Reilly



 On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:49 AM, <skyflyte(at)comcast.net (skyflyte(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]   

I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator.  It worked very well! 

Mike 

Model II - 582 - #490 

 

---

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: kitfox 3

Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you  place them?  Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you  follow the leading edge line?

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert,  in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning  economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

I tried them I think an inch or two ahead of the hinge line  parallel to the hinges.  They did little for my IV .  I have found they help alot on super cubs.  The model 2 has less elevator effectiveness than a model IV so I would think they would see more benefit. 



I think you guys should post some videos of how much better they work.  I don't think a model 2 will be able to drag the tailwheel down the runway. My Model IV is marginal at doing it . 



VG's do seem to have a few attributes. I have had them on my IV Kitfox for over 1000 hours and I have not removed them yet.   I would like to alter some of the spacing and placement  but it flys so damn well  I just don't find it high on the priorities.





[quote="Fox5flyer"]Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you  place them?  Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you  follow the leading edge line?

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP  438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert,  in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

-- Nobel prize-winning  economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

  	  Quote: 	
		     ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

How bout some pictures and some performance videos to  show us how much better  it  is ?   



Lexan -- I bend it all the time in my brake.  will form nice sharp edge. 

What did you use for adhesive ?   2 sided tape or  crazy glue ?



 	  skyflyte(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator.  It worked very well! 

Mike 

Model II - 582 - #490 



---

skyflyte(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Pat,  

   You don't need to heat form Lexan.  I cut pieces, probably 1.5" x 1.0", and bent it in a right angle using a steel ruler so I had a VG 1.5" long and 0.5" high.  Double sided tape didn't stick very well so I used a piece of very stickey clear tape 2" wide.  I just cut a slot in it, inserted the VG,  and applied it to the flabic.  That was probably 8 years ago and they are still all there.  But you have to look closely, clear Lexan and clear tape, they are nearly invisible.  This project probably cost me about $1.00 in materials and maybe 2 hrs. of time. 

   Mike 



---

skyflyte(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Deke, 

   Well, it has been a while but I think they were all 3" ahead of the hinge line, spaced about 3" apart, and angled 17-18 degrees from the airflow.  Almost everything stalls (at) 16 degrees or sooner, so I thought that angle would work.  I made a Lexan template so positioning them was easy.  I guess I make a lot of stuff from Lexan! 

   Mike 



---

skyflyte(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Dave, 

   Here is how I can tell the difference in elevator effectveness.  Mostly bounced landings (3 point) in the first few years.  Then I saw a Monocoup with fabric gap seals in the elevator.  I made some out of tape and landings were much more predictable.  After adding the VG's, I could actually get the tail wheel to touch first.  I don't think I'll be removing these things to make a video of they improved performance! 

   Mike

---

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy type glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:04 PM, <skyflyte(at)comcast.net (skyflyte(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]   

Pat,  

   You don't need to heat form Lexan.  I cut pieces, probably 1.5" x 1.0", and bent it in a right angle using a steel ruler so I had a VG 1.5" long and 0.5" high.  Double sided tape didn't stick very well so I used a piece of very stickey clear tape 2" wide.  I just cut a slot in it, inserted the VG,  and applied it to the flabic.  That was probably 8 years ago and they are still all there.  But you have to look closely, clear Lexan and clear tape, they are nearly invisible.  This project probably cost me about $1.00 in materials and maybe 2 hrs. of time.  

   Mike 

 

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Mike, Great stuff. 



How did you stick them to the horiz.stab? 



I did not mean remove them to compare but to show others how you can land with tailwheel first.  This is a big improvement for the  pre model IV. 



Got any pics?

Dave



 	  skyflyte(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Dave, 

   Here is how I can tell the difference in elevator effectveness.  Mostly bounced landings (3 point) in the first few years.  Then I saw a Monocoup with fabric gap seals in the elevator.  I made some out of tape and landings were much more predictable.  After adding the VG's, I could actually get the tail wheel to touch first.  I don't think I'll be removing these things to make a video of they improved performance! 

   Mike

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: kitfox 3

Pat.  you must of used Harrison designs VGs ?   They use crazy glue. 



The Stolspeed.com ones come with adhesive and a real good kick ass one from 3m . 



HAve you flown your Kitfox yet ?  



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy typeï¿½glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.

ï¿½

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford, IL

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Deke, The supplier of my VG's recommended 1" infront of rear edge of horiz stab and parallel to the hingeline or rear edge of horiz stab. My horiz stab wasn't mounted yet so I didn't have to lay on my back. FAA is coming tomorrow for airworthiness certificate.

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

 On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM, fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net (fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net)> wrote:

 [quote]  Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you place them?  Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you follow the leading edge line?

 Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara

Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."

 -- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

  

 [quote] ---

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: kitfox 3

Dave, I will have to look up my VG supplier. I had to buy the glue. It was recommended by supplier, not supplied. The FAA is coming tomorrow for airworthiness cert. I have taxied only. With my limited experience, I have a test pilot lined up for 1st flight. I'm lucky. A test pilot that has 1st flighted 10 KF lives right here in Rockford.

  Â 

 Pat Reilly

 On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:58 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

 

Pat. Â you must of used Harrison designs VGs ? Â  They use crazy glue.



The Stolspeed.com ones come with adhesive and a real good kick ass one from 3m .



HAve you flown your Kitfox yet ?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy typeï¿½glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.

 > ï¿½
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL


	




--------

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