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kitfox 3
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kenjrichter



Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Location: US

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Wow, I didn't realize Osceola was such a popular name I guess Chief Osceola was a popular Indian,
I wanted to comment on Michel's post about not wanting to lose the drooping wingtips I didn't lose mine when I cut the wings shorter I just remounted them on the next rib it was pretty simple really I just used 1"x1/16 alum flat and screwed and glued it to the rib flange and then the tips attach to that just like it was before and I'm not really sure it would save you in a ground loop anyway my plane has damage from what looks to have been a ground loop.
it has a bend under the seat where the limit cables attach and the left wing has been rebuilt from about four feet in from the tip and that flapperon has some wrinkles in it at about four feet in as well all this and the plane had 8 hours on it when I got it must have been a rough 8 hrs.
I hear alot about ground loops with these planes but in my 60 hours flying it I have not even had a close call it seems very stable on the ground but maybe this is because of the grove gear.


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model 3 speedster
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:05 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

I'd have to say almost uncertainly it was because of the Grove
gear....a wider stance, and a bit lower too, if I'm not mistaken.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 818.9 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~185 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
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Status: flying (and learning)
do not archive

On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:26 PM, kenjrichter wrote:

Quote:

<kenrichter(at)centurytel.net>

I hear alot about ground loops with these planes but in my 60
hours flying it I have not even had a close call it seems very
stable on the ground but maybe this is because of the grove gear.

--------
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear


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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Ken, If you are marginal on elevator authority, did you consider gap seals or vortex generators under the horiz stabilizer?
 
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:08 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

Lyle, I forgot to mention that the landings were better I used to run out of elevator authority before the plane was done flying making it hard to land but now thats better as well.

Ken Richter
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear

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kenjrichter



Joined: 15 Nov 2009
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Location: US

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.

Thanks


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Pat Reilly



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Ken, If you decide on VG's let me know. The ones I bought were recommended to me and I was very happy with price and the product.
 
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582
Rockford, IL
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:34 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter(at)centurytel.net (kenrichter(at)centurytel.net)>

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.

Thanks

--------
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

What brand are you recommending? and What results have to had ?

I have tested several brands and the best bang for the buck are www.stolspeed.com ones. They come with adhesive tape. I think about 100$ for entire set.

Model 2 s do run out of elevator sooner than the model IV I will say. I tried then on bottom of horiz stab ahead of the hinge line on model IV and had no change. I do have tape on my IV elevator for about 4 years and I forget if it changed anything. Plane works awesome just look at the videos. They speak louder than words.
[quote="Pat Reilly"]Ken, If you decide on VG's let me know. The ones I bought were recommended to me and I was very happy with price and the product.
�
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582
Rockford, IL
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 5:34 PM, kenjrichter <kenrichter> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kenjrichter" <kenrichter>

I do have the elevator gap seal I put that on before the wing mod and it did help but I may consider the vortex generators.

Thanks

--------
Ken Richter
Osceola,Wi
model 3 speedster
582/GSC prop/Grove gear


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Being a cheap sort of guy, how hard can vg's be to make? Anybody done that?

Pete

[quote] ---


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator. It worked very well!
Mike
Model II - 582 - #490

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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Mike, Did you heat form the .016 Lexan? What fabrication methods did you use? I was contemplating fabricating my own for the underside of the hoiz. stab. but ended up purchasing the VG's to save a little time.
 
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
 
Pat Reilly

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 9:49 AM, <skyflyte(at)comcast.net (skyflyte(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator.  It worked very well!
Mike
Model II - 582 - #490

---


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:15 am    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you place them? Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you follow the leading edge line?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

[quote] ---


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

I tried them I think an inch or two ahead of the hinge line parallel to the hinges. They did little for my IV . I have found they help alot on super cubs. The model 2 has less elevator effectiveness than a model IV so I would think they would see more benefit.

I think you guys should post some videos of how much better they work. I don't think a model 2 will be able to drag the tailwheel down the runway. My Model IV is marginal at doing it .

VG's do seem to have a few attributes. I have had them on my IV Kitfox for over 1000 hours and I have not removed them yet. I would like to alter some of the spacing and placement but it flys so damn well I just don't find it high on the priorities.


[quote="Fox5flyer"]Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you place them? Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you follow the leading edge line?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)

Quote:
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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

How bout some pictures and some performance videos to show us how much better it is ?

Lexan -- I bend it all the time in my brake. will form nice sharp edge.
What did you use for adhesive ? 2 sided tape or crazy glue ?

skyflyte(at)comcast.net wrote:
I made mine out of 0.016" lexan and used them on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer to increase the effectiveness of the elevator. It worked very well!
Mike
Model II - 582 - #490

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Pat,
You don't need to heat form Lexan. I cut pieces, probably 1.5" x 1.0", and bent it in a right angle using a steel ruler so I had a VG 1.5" long and 0.5" high. Double sided tape didn't stick very well so I used a piece of very stickey clear tape 2" wide. I just cut a slot in it, inserted the VG, and applied it to the flabic. That was probably 8 years ago and they are still all there. But you have to look closely, clear Lexan and clear tape, they are nearly invisible.  This project probably cost me about $1.00 in materials and maybe 2 hrs. of time.
Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Deke,
Well, it has been a while but I think they were all 3" ahead of the hinge line, spaced about 3" apart, and angled 17-18 degrees from the airflow. Almost everything stalls (at) 16 degrees or sooner, so I thought that angle would work. I made a Lexan template so positioning them was easy. I guess I make a lot of stuff from Lexan!
Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Dave,
Here is how I can tell the difference in elevator effectveness. Mostly bounced landings (3 point) in the first few years. Then I saw a Monocoup with fabric gap seals in the elevator. I made some out of tape and landings were much more predictable. After adding the VG's, I could actually get the tail wheel to touch first. I don't think I'll be removing these things to make a video of they improved performance!
Mike
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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy type glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.
 
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 3:04 PM, <skyflyte(at)comcast.net (skyflyte(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]
Pat,
   You don't need to heat form Lexan.  I cut pieces, probably 1.5" x 1.0", and bent it in a right angle using a steel ruler so I had a VG 1.5" long and 0.5" high.  Double sided tape didn't stick very well so I used a piece of very stickey clear tape 2" wide.  I just cut a slot in it, inserted the VG,  and applied it to the flabic.  That was probably 8 years ago and they are still all there.  But you have to look closely, clear Lexan and clear tape, they are nearly invisible.  This project probably cost me about $1.00 in materials and maybe 2 hrs. of time.
   Mike

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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Mike, Great stuff.

How did you stick them to the horiz.stab?

I did not mean remove them to compare but to show others how you can land with tailwheel first. This is a big improvement for the pre model IV.

Got any pics?
Dave

skyflyte(at)comcast.net wrote:
Dave,
Here is how I can tell the difference in elevator effectveness. Mostly bounced landings (3 point) in the first few years. Then I saw a Monocoup with fabric gap seals in the elevator. I made some out of tape and landings were much more predictable. After adding the VG's, I could actually get the tail wheel to touch first. I don't think I'll be removing these things to make a video of they improved performance!
Mike
---


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dave



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Pat. you must of used Harrison designs VGs ? They use crazy glue.

The Stolspeed.com ones come with adhesive and a real good kick ass one from 3m .

HAve you flown your Kitfox yet ?

Quote:
Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy type�glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.
�
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL


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Pat Reilly



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Deke, The supplier of my VG's recommended 1" infront of rear edge of horiz stab and parallel to the hingeline or rear edge of horiz stab. My horiz stab wasn't mounted yet so I didn't have to lay on my back. FAA is coming tomorrow for airworthiness certificate.
 
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM, fox5flyer <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net (fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net)> wrote:
[quote] Mike, how far back from the leading edge did you place them?  Did you place them horizontal to the hinge line or did you follow the leading edge line?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 438+ TT
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara
Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand."
-- Nobel prize-winning economist Milton Friedman (1912-2006)
 
[quote] ---


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Pat Reilly



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: kitfox 3 Reply with quote

Dave, I will have to look up my VG supplier. I had to buy the glue. It was recommended by supplier, not supplied. The FAA is coming tomorrow for airworthiness cert. I have taxied only. With my limited experience, I have a test pilot lined up for 1st flight. I'm lucky. A test pilot that has 1st flighted 10 KF lives right here in Rockford.
 
Pat Reilly
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 5:58 PM, dave <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

Pat.  you must of used Harrison designs VGs ?   They use crazy glue.

The Stolspeed.com ones come with adhesive and a real good kick ass one from 3m .

HAve you flown your Kitfox yet ?
Quote:
Mike, Thanks for info. I didn't realize you could cold form Lexan. I ended up using a 3M crazy type�glue recommended by the VG mfg. It seems to work fine. Time will tell. Where are you located. Most of us use a signature that gives location and specs of our plane.
> �

Quote:
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL


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