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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: Bailing out

Nick C   *sigh* I miss living there.  When we moved to Houston we were told that it snows like once every 10-20 years.  This is my third year down here and it's snowed three times.  The latest was yesterday C from about 8am-6pm.  Of course two or three weeks ago we were high 80's so nothing stuck C but then the temp dropped to 26 last night and probably caused some slick spots.  Next month I'm flying a Stearman and trying to figure out how to keep from freezing with an 80mph wind in my face all the time.  I imagine it'll probably be similar to riding a motorcycle in the middle of winter.  Stay warm up there C Brian W.

From: info(at)flylightning.net

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Bailing out

Date: Sat C 5 Dec 2009 10:44:56 -0600

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I am reading all of this and all good points from all C see the voice has not had to speak in this case. However I would like to point something out C  

It snowed last night here in TN and it is freakin cold!!!  

Nick  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n1bzrich(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday C December 05 C 2009 10:30 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Bailing out  

Doug C  

    Well stated C Doug C and outstanding advise.  You remain a sage of down to earth wisdom.  Maybe because of your knowledge that sh*t goes downhill.    

Buz  

In a message dated 12/5/2009 9:45:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time C Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:.  

   	  Quote: 	

This is more of a general response to Bill and others who are considering trying more aggressive maneuvers in their  Lightning's.   I am not writing as an expert in aerobatics.    I am using several third party anecdotes.   It is just my mental compilations.   It is what I have heard from "hangar flying"  

There seems to be several things that are universal to early attempts at flying beyond the recommendations of the kit maker.    

1)  Assumptions that a little experience is enough to handle a Lightning.   That is OK if one is lucky.  I have heard of 4 different pilots C  at least 2 were former Air Force jet jockeys (not Buz) C   who tried a sloppy roll in a Lightning and ended up going straight down and needed a high G pullout.    The plane saved them because of its strength C but it was not a fun time.  

2) Assumptions that a Lightning is "like" something else C therefore it reacts the same way.   A couple of the previously mention pilots had high performance aerobatic planes.  They still screwed up their first roll.  

3) Assuming you wont need to "get out" of the plane if something goes bad.  The best case here is the Cessna BugCatcher (SkyCatcher).   On two separate occasions C during spin testing C two different airplanes became uncontrollable and ended up crashing.   Parachutes saved the pilots C but the point is that even experienced pilots with an intimate knowledge of a particular airframe can end up badly.....  Do you fly with personal rules?   A good one might be C no aerobatic attempts in a Lightning without A)a canopy release and a parachute or B) an airframe chute.   Which is why I am impressed by Bill's willingness to raise the issue in the first place.  

4) Assuming the plane's response wont be abrupt.  If you read Buz's accounts C you may recall he had a flap problem during testing and the plane rolled upside down ....faster than even he could respond to.  You will also note to ENTER a spin C it was necessary to pitch the nose up at very high angles.   Same for doing departure stalls.  If you work at doing aggressive stalls C the plane can also respond aggressively.   Remember Buz has a lot of cautions about becoming inverted and entering flat spins.    

5) Ignoring the cautions of people who have done aggressive maneuvers.   There is a reason the most experienced and skilled pilots of Lightnings dont talk about what they can do in a Lightning.  They are afraid someone who overestimates their piloting skills will try it with fatal results.  Not because the airplane is unsafe C but it WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR AEROBATICS!!    

6) Not thinking about the effect of their screw up on the "brand".   We know what the Feds just did to the Zenair Zodiac XL.  It only took a handful of crashes C without a single common cause C out of more than 1 C000 flying to "ground" that whole bunch.   We have already lost a couple Lightning's with no common cause.... out of a lot less than 1 C000 flying.   We really need Lightning pilots to act wisely C not just for their sake but for the sake of all of use who love the plane.  

7) Not resisting temptation.  We all know what it feels like to be buzzing along on a great day strapped in a fine airplane.   A few swerves C turns and banks feel good and we think she wants to loop C roll or spin.  Take a cold shower first.  

FWIW  

Doug Koenigsberg   

   	  Quote: 	
		    ===========ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.comm/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.comtp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution====================================t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List====================================  	
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: Bailing out

Nick C   *sigh* I miss living there.  When we moved to Houston we were told that it snows like once every 10-20 years.  This is my third year down here and it's snowed three times.  The latest was yesterday C from about 8am-6pm.  Of course two or three weeks ago we were high 80's so nothing stuck C but then the temp dropped to 26 last night and probably caused some slick spots.  Next month I'm flying a Stearman and trying to figure out how to keep from freezing with an 80mph wind in my face all the time.  I imagine it'll probably be similar to riding a motorcycle in the middle of winter.  Stay warm up there C Brian W.

From: info(at)flylightning.net

To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Bailing out

Date: Sat C 5 Dec 2009 10:44:56 -0600

         .ExternalClass .ecxshape {;}    .ExternalClass p.ecxMsoNormal C .ExternalClass li.ecxMsoNormal C .ExternalClass div.ecxMsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link C .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited C .ExternalClass span.ecxMsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass span.ecxEmailStyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass div.ecxSection1 {page:Section1;}         

I am reading all of this and all good points from all C see the voice has not had to speak in this case. However I would like to point something out C  

It snowed last night here in TN and it is freakin cold!!!  

Nick  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n1bzrich(at)aol.com

 Sent: Saturday C December 05 C 2009 10:30 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Re: Bailing out  

Doug C  

    Well stated C Doug C and outstanding advise.  You remain a sage of down to earth wisdom.  Maybe because of your knowledge that sh*t goes downhill.    

Buz  

In a message dated 12/5/2009 9:45:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time C Kayberg(at)aol.com writes:.  

   	  Quote: 	

This is more of a general response to Bill and others who are considering trying more aggressive maneuvers in their  Lightning's.   I am not writing as an expert in aerobatics.    I am using several third party anecdotes.   It is just my mental compilations.   It is what I have heard from "hangar flying"  

There seems to be several things that are universal to early attempts at flying beyond the recommendations of the kit maker.    

1)  Assumptions that a little experience is enough to handle a Lightning.   That is OK if one is lucky.  I have heard of 4 different pilots C  at least 2 were former Air Force jet jockeys (not Buz) C   who tried a sloppy roll in a Lightning and ended up going straight down and needed a high G pullout.    The plane saved them because of its strength C but it was not a fun time.  

2) Assumptions that a Lightning is "like" something else C therefore it reacts the same way.   A couple of the previously mention pilots had high performance aerobatic planes.  They still screwed up their first roll.  

3) Assuming you wont need to "get out" of the plane if something goes bad.  The best case here is the Cessna BugCatcher (SkyCatcher).   On two separate occasions C during spin testing C two different airplanes became uncontrollable and ended up crashing.   Parachutes saved the pilots C but the point is that even experienced pilots with an intimate knowledge of a particular airframe can end up badly.....  Do you fly with personal rules?   A good one might be C no aerobatic attempts in a Lightning without A)a canopy release and a parachute or B) an airframe chute.   Which is why I am impressed by Bill's willingness to raise the issue in the first place.  

4) Assuming the plane's response wont be abrupt.  If you read Buz's accounts C you may recall he had a flap problem during testing and the plane rolled upside down ....faster than even he could respond to.  You will also note to ENTER a spin C it was necessary to pitch the nose up at very high angles.   Same for doing departure stalls.  If you work at doing aggressive stalls C the plane can also respond aggressively.   Remember Buz has a lot of cautions about becoming inverted and entering flat spins.    

5) Ignoring the cautions of people who have done aggressive maneuvers.   There is a reason the most experienced and skilled pilots of Lightnings dont talk about what they can do in a Lightning.  They are afraid someone who overestimates their piloting skills will try it with fatal results.  Not because the airplane is unsafe C but it WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR AEROBATICS!!    

6) Not thinking about the effect of their screw up on the "brand".   We know what the Feds just did to the Zenair Zodiac XL.  It only took a handful of crashes C without a single common cause C out of more than 1 C000 flying to "ground" that whole bunch.   We have already lost a couple Lightning's with no common cause.... out of a lot less than 1 C000 flying.   We really need Lightning pilots to act wisely C not just for their sake but for the sake of all of use who love the plane.  

7) Not resisting temptation.  We all know what it feels like to be buzzing along on a great day strapped in a fine airplane.   A few swerves C turns and banks feel good and we think she wants to loop C roll or spin.  Take a cold shower first.  

FWIW  

Doug Koenigsberg   

   	  Quote: 	
		    ===========ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.comm/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.comtp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution====================================t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List====================================  	
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voroninmax(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: Bailing out

Just drove from the Door County, WI yesterday. Pretty nice up there and no snow. Chicago on the other hand is freezing cold. Oh, and snow everywhere. Go figure. 

Max 

[quote]On Dec 5, 2009 1:32 PM, "Brian Whittingham" <dashvii(at)hotmail.com (dashvii(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:



     Nick,   *sigh* I miss living there.  When we moved to Houston we were told that it snows like once every 10-20 years.  This is my third year down here and it's snowed three times.  The latest was yesterday, from about 8am-6pm.  Of course two or three weeks ago we were high 80's so nothing stuck, but then the temp dropped to 26 last night and probably caused some slick spots.  Next month I'm flying a Stearman and trying to figure out how to keep from freezing with an 80mph wind in my face all the time.  I imagine it'll probably be similar to riding a motorcycle in the middle of winter.  Stay warm up there, Brian W.

 

From: info(at)flylightning.net (info(at)flylightning.net)

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com) Subject: RE: Re: Bailing out

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 10:44:56 -0600



                  

I am reading all of this and all good points from all, see the voice has not had to speak in this case. However I would like to point something out,  

It snowed last night here in TN and it is freakin cold!!!  

   

Nick  

         

  

From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of n1bzrich(at)aol.com (n1bzrich(at)aol.com)

 Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:30 AM

 To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com) Subject: Re: Re: Bailing out  

  

     

Doug,  

    

    Well stated, Doug, and outstanding advise.  You remain a sage of down to earth wisdom.  Maybe because of your knowledge that sh*t goes downhill.    

    

Buz  

    

   

    

   

      

In a message dated 12/5/2009 9:45:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com) writes:.  

   	  Quote: 	
		  

 > > This is more of a general response to Bill and others who are considering trying more aggressiv... 	  Quote: 	
		  ===========ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.comm/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com"http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.comtp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List===========ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com===========ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com 	
0 ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com 	
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8

 		 	   		  

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rosestar(at)sonic.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Bailing Out

Buz,



I really appreciate the response.  Thank you.



Brad



N1BZRich(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brad,

     I feel the same way you do that the majority of the 601XL problems 

 were probably being caused by pilot input.  Unfortunately, about four 

 years ago I had talked our EAA chapter into buying a 601XL kit and 

 building it as a chapter project.  I was the technical counselor on 

 the project and the guy that made sure it was built according to 

 plans.  The building process went well and all the chapter members 

 involved learned a lot about acceptable aircraft building standards 

 and reading blueprints, etc.   When the airplane was completed, four 

 guys in the chapter bought it, formed a LLC, and have put close to 300 

 hours on it in the last 2 &1/2 years.  I made the initial flights 

 before turning it over to the owners (about 10 hours) and since then 

 the owners have enjoyed it very much, but have only flown it well 

 inside the stated performance envelop. 

     Today the wings are coming off to get ready to accomplish the 

 latest changes.  I don't know how long it will take us to get all 

 those changes accomplished, but the owners knew that in order to sell 

 it in the future, the changes needed to be accomplished - not because 

 they were worried about flying their aircraft. 

     The point of this message is to let you know I understand what you 

 are going through.  You have probably already invested a lot of time 

 into your project and now will be starting again.  Bummer.  But I also 

 want you to know that looking at all the kits out there, you can't do 

 any better than the Lightning if "time to build" is anywhere on your 

 decision matrix.  It is absolutely the best airplane out there that 

 can meet the light sport requirements if that is also a part of your 

 decision process. 

     So good luck in your hunt for your next project and don't hesitate 

 to contact me if you have any questions.  I probably sound like I am 

 on the Lighting payroll, but that is not the case.  Heck, I don't even 

 own one.  I have flown lots of them and believe in their product and 

 the people that made it happen.  Good friends. 

 Blue Skies,

 Buz

  

 In a message dated 12/5/2009 11:22:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

 rosestar(at)sonic.net writes:



     



     Doug's comments are very wise.



     I am one of those Zodiac owners.  I am parting out my airplane for

     specific reasons.



     However, some of us pilots are aware of the conditions in which those

     airplanes were flown when they crashed...250# over gross, extreme

     high

     speed low pass, aggressive speeds in an airplane at 1200#.  These are

     pilot issues.  The point is that these LSA's are extremely light

     aircraft which are advertised to fly at 138 mph.  In my opinion

     that is

     WAY over acceptable speeds for the aluminum airframes, and the

     tube and

     fabric airframes.  What could have saved lives?  Answer:  prudent and

     conservative flying.  These are not aerobatic airplanes.  If someone

     wants to fly it aggressively, then they risk their own life, but also

     impact the future of other owners.



     Now...I am on this list because I am contemplating a purchase of a

     Lightening for its structural strength.   But, I would not consider

     aerobatics in it.



     ("Sad") Brad

     former Zodiac builder/pilot. ======================== nbsp;      

        (And Get Some AWESOME FREE to find Gifts tric re b k you for p;

                         -Matt Dralle, List ========================

     Use the ties Day ================================================

                  - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS

     ==================================================



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n5pb(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: Bailing out

I'm mad too Nick....I had to cut my grass on Saturday.

    

   Bear

 

 

 

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