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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Has anybody installed (or have experience with) the G3i electronic ignition system?

 Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

 

 



 [quote][b]

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Jesse  

   

I am going to go with this ignition system it totally make since to me being a old a&p having mags as a backup if the electronics goes out is the only way to go.  

   

I talked to the Manager at Eagle engines they have installed it a few times and has one installed on there test stand they run all engines they work on,  it looks like a great product.  

   

I have in the past over 30 yrs ago used the MFD products on my car and they were flawless.  So I am sure this product runs in line with that.  

     

John G. Cumins  

President  

   

JC'S Interactive Systems  

2499 B1 Martin Rd  

Fairfield Ca 94533  

707-425-7100  

707-425-7576 Fax  

   

  

Your Total Technology Solution Provider      

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint

 Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:48 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: G3i Ignition  

  

  

   

Has anybody installed (or have experience with) the G3i electronic ignition system?    

       

Jesse Saint  

    

Saint Aviation, Inc.  

    

jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)  

    

Cell: 352-427-0285  

    

Fax: 815-377-3694  

  

  

   

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       [quote][b]

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

While the concept looks good in some ways, what I don't understand is

what you actually gain over a well maintained magneto. The timing

doesn't change, still fixed. So you get a multiple spark..maybe that

helps if you have an oil burner, but seems like a lot of money to gain

very little. Maybe I am missing something, maybe I misread.



On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:42 PM, John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Jesse



 I am going to go with this ignition system it totally make since to me being

 a old a&p having mags as a backup if the electronics goes out is the only

 way to go.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Larry vetterman used/uses it:

 Now after flying it almost 100 hours, here are  the reasons that I really like the G3. #1. Easy to install, even I could follow  the wiring diagrams. 2. the system uses the existing mags and if there is an  electrical failure, the mags operate normally. 3. the engine starts very well  both hot and cold. 4. I can now run lean of peak if desired whereas before my  M1B, with standard mags balked at anything beyond peak EGT. 5. I see a lower ghp  with the G3 vs standard mags. 6. The M1B engine is extremely smooth with the G3.  7. I used the expensive Champion fine wire spark plugs(I had a set on the shelf)  gapped to .021 however I understand that an inexpensive automotive plug can also  be used

  

 check out his site for the full report- under the  prop comparison.

  

 Pascal

  



  From: Jesse Saint (jesse(at)saintaviation.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:47 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: G3i Ignition

 



Has anybody installed (or have experience with) the G3i  electronic ignition system?  

  Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)

 Cell: 352-427-0285

 Fax: 815-377-3694



[quote]



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[b]

n277dl

Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 49
Location: Muscatine IA

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

I've installed on the -10 but it hasn't been started yet.  It is a fairly easy install.  Thomas Shpakow was great to talk with.  He was always willing to answer my dumb questions. 



Not sure if he's changed the manual but early on, he was trying to show all the possible ways to install and made the install appear much more complicated than it actually was.  When I talked to Thomas at Osh this year he was thinking of simplifying the install manual and providing the less common configurations as an appendix.



I'll let you know how it runs this spring 



Doug

_________________
Doug
"Fools" are always more creative than process people and will always find ways to ruin a perfectly good set of processes.

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: G3i Ignition

Kelly



Yes the electronic controller will change the timing totally.  When the

electronic module is powered up it takes over for the mages but if it dies

the mages will kick in.  It is totally automated when turned on.



John G. Cumins

--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

what are mages?

---

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

mags ... magneto's  ?

---

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Boy don't have fat fingers on this form hehe.  The vultures will eat ya a

live.



John 

40864 EMP about to start priming

--

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

My spelling always gets made fun of.  I'm passing it along...It's a vicious cycle. I was really careful writing this one.



Does this system use MSD? 



I have used MSD on high performance boats and have grown not to trust them. They were eating away at the cap and rotors and had intermittent problems which were hard to troubleshoot. Plus I got the bejesus shocked out of me.  It felt like, i assume, a taser.



bejesus is a word.

1.	 Bejesus	

A word commonly used to express great surprise or fear.

You scared the BEJESUS out of me!!!

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

John,

Actually, having read through the web site again, the system does NOT

change magneto timing. It uses one of the mag points to trigger, and

provides a multiple spark for 20 degrees after the trigger. In other

words, if your engine is timed to 25 degrees, it will fire at 25

degrees all the time, except during starting. While this may give you

smoother running and a tiny bit better combustion, it does NOTHING for

advancing the timing event when at less than full power, such as in

cruise. So it will do almost nothing for fuel efficiency, nor will it

provide any additional power.

Systems like the Lightspeed Plasma advance the timing event 10-15

degrees when the engine is producing something less than full power to

gain efficiency when less detonation margin is needed.

They do offer a manual advance for the MSD, but this would be

hazardous to your engine where you have no immediate feedback if

approaching ping or knock.

Kelly

40866

QB Wings

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 11:35 AM, John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Kelly



 Yes the electronic controller will change the timing totally.  When the

 electronic module is powered up it takes over for the mages but if it dies

 the mages will kick in.  It is totally automated when turned on.



 John G. Cumins

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Kelly



The points are yes set to 25 degrees btdc and yes it does use the points to

trigger timing to the electronic box, but the box controls the actual firing

of the coil and also does it in numerous spark cycles, I was told between 2

- 3 spark cycles depending on rpm.  So the Electronic control does control

the actual timing of the spark to the coils rotor, spark then goes to

distributor block then to the spark plug lead then to the plug itself.



The only current that flows thru the points when the Electronic control is

on is the point trigger of the engine at 25 degrees btdc that's all and so

the point will not arc or wear out.



I have heard great things and I like how this works a lot.  I think it is a

much safer system then some of the other systems out there.



JUST my 2 cents worth.

John

40864 Emp



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

My point was that the system does not advance timing, so you still

have fixed timing, although there are multiple spark events from 25

degrees to 5 degrees BTDC. The only way to gain power or economy is to

advance the timing once power has decreased from full takeoff power.



On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 6:14 PM, John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Kelly



 The points are yes set to 25 degrees btdc and yes it does use the points to

 trigger timing to the electronic box, but the box controls the actual firing

 of the coil and also does it in numerous spark cycles, I was told between 2

 - 3 spark cycles depending on rpm.  So the Electronic control does control

 the actual timing of the spark to the coils rotor, spark then goes to

 distributor block then to the spark plug lead then to the plug itself.



 The only current that flows thru the points when the Electronic control is

 on is the point trigger of the engine at 25 degrees btdc that's all and so

 the point will not arc or wear out.



 I have heard great things and I like how this works a lot.  I think it is a

 much safer system then some of the other systems out there.



 JUST my 2 cents worth.

 John

 40864 Emp



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Kelly that is not correct.  When the electronic unit is powered it will

control the timing of the spark not the mags. The mages only control the

timing of the spark when the electronic unit is powered off or failed.  I

would recommend that you call the number on there web site he might be able

to explain it better to you than I can.



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Re-read their own description. The unit still uses one of the two mags 

to provide the timing of the initial spark event, and all other sparks 

are AFTER the initial spark. I read through the entire install manual 

and all descriptions. There is NO indication that the MSD unit advances 

the spark at all. The opening of the points provides the timing. There 

is minimal current as long as the MSD is functional, but it still is the 

points providing the timing.k The only difference is you get a multiple 

spark, kind of like the difference between a single event strobe and the 

Whelen Comet flash. The spark might be somewhat higher voltage, and the 

system assures that both left and right plugs are fired simultaneously 

even if the mag timing is different by a degree or two from left to 

right, because the system only uses one mag to trigger.



John Cumins wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Kelly that is not correct.  When the electronic unit is powered it will

 control the timing of the spark not the mags. The mages only control the

 timing of the spark when the electronic unit is powered off or failed.  I

 would recommend that you call the number on there web site he might be able

 to explain it better to you than I can.

 

 

 

 John G. Cumins

 President

  

 JC'S Interactive Systems

 2499 B1 Martin Rd

 Fairfield Ca 94533

 707-425-7100

 707-425-7576 Fax

  

 Your Total Technology Solution Provider

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

The way Thomas described it to me at OSH this year, as the fuel air mixture 

swirls in the cylinder, the 20 degrees of spark produced by the MSD (which 

always fires at 25 degrees BTDC using magneto timing, the control box does 

not adjust timing) lights the mixture at different points as it swirls by. 

Light a pile of hay with a flare in one spot, or light the pile in 10 spots 

around the base.  Which way will it fully burn faster?  Think about why your 

airplane engine runs better on two plugs than on one during your mag check. 

This achieves similar results to advancing timing, but simpler.  I am no 

expert here, but it makes sense to me.  Also, you can read more on the 

science of advanced ignition timing in aircraft and how it relates to the 

G3i concept here: http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php

Read "Ignition dynamics I,II & III" and then this system makes even better 

sense.

I looked hard at several ignition systems including Lightspeed, Electroair 

and LASAR among others.  I also spoke with Larry Vetterman and a friend of 

Stein's who built and raced cars with MSD and installed G3i in his RV7. 

They both are happy with the reliability, increased engine performance and 

efficiency the G3i system  provides.  The system is also less than 1/2 the 

price of a dual lightspeed or LASAR system, and provides full redundancy 

using the mags should the system lose power.  No second battery needed.  I 

purchased the series-2 G3i system.  I hope to have it running next summer. 

I recommend calling Thomas at G3i.  He is a great guy to deal with and will 

answer all your questions.   Again I am no expert, but after my due 

diligence, this system makes the most sense to me.



Dave Leikam

RV-10 #40496

N89DA

Muskego, WI



---

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Kelly  



Give the guy a call I talked to him at length and he will explain it.  He

says that the total advance runs between 31- 32 degrees at full power. Just

give him a call you will be amazed.



Have a great weekend and Christmas. 



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider

--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

I don't need to call someone to find out something that is

electrically and physically impossible. If the first spark occurs at

25 degrees, no additional sparks are going to advance timing.

Multiple sparks do nothing for you unless the first spark doesn't

ignite the mixture. You still have two plugs. You would need more

plugs to ignite more of the mixture simultaneously. The CAFE reports

and Ford testing also show this. Better atomization and better mixture

distribution do far more for you than multiple sparks at lean

mixtures. I had an MSD unit on a car in the 70s, until it failed stone

cold dead. Not real interested in experiencing that in an aircraft. In

fact the CAFE reports demonstrated that Bendix 1200 mags were as good

or better than dual electronic ignition.

But experimental lets us all make our own choices. Be careful to

separate marketing hype from real data and facts.



On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:16 PM, John Cumins <jcumins(at)jcis.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 Kelly



 Give the guy a call I talked to him at length and he will explain it.  He

 says that the total advance runs between 31- 32 degrees at full power. Just

 give him a call you will be amazed.



 Have a great weekend and Christmas.



 John G. Cumins

 President



 JC'S Interactive Systems

 2499 B1 Martin Rd

 Fairfield Ca 94533

 707-425-7100

 707-425-7576 Fax



 Your Total Technology Solution Provider

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

Kelly,



I have no idea how this system works but to say it's physically impossible is not correct. Here is how it might work:



The RPM's of an engine change slowly, compared to the time between cylinder firings. The black box knows the rpms, and thus the time between plug firings. From the time the points close, it can time the plug to next fire not 720 degrees, but say 710 degrees (10 degrees of advance) later. In other words, the points may control not the current firing, but the one after that, with a timer (sync'd to the rpm) controlling the actual time.



As I said, I don't know if the system does this. But it might. It certainly wouldn't be hard to implement. The only real limitation is that the distributor contacts need to be in contact at that time.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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