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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Here's an exchange with supplier of the product

 being examined:



 ------------------------------------------------

 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> 

 To: customerservice(at)poweropti-miser.com 

 Subject: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data? 



 

 Good morning, 



 I'm a consulting engineer retired after 40+ years in 

 aviation and industrial electrical systems design. I've 

 been retained by a client to evaluate suitability 

 of the Power Opti-Miser to several applications. 



 I am writing to inquire as to the availability of 

 reports on testing cited in some of the product 

 promotions I found on the 'net. Can you tell me 

 if the product is patented? If so, can you cite 

 patent numbers? 



 After evaluating any technical data you might provide, 

 we'll probably order an exemplar device for evaluation 

 in our labs. Thanks! 



 

 Bob . . .



 ---------------------------------------------

 From: "Frank Garza" <frank.garza(at)usa.net>

 To: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?



 Hello Mr. Nuckolls, 



 The Power Opti-Miser is Patented.... 



 All you questions you may have can be answered by reviewing 



 my website Frequently Asked Questions Page (FAQs)... 



 Thank you for your interest in my porduct 



 sincerely, 



 Frank (Owner) 



 ---------------------------------------------



    I have searched the website for anything that

    speaks to patents, reports or tests with no

    hits. I've written back to ask for clarification.

    I don't expect to receive a reply.



    Bob . . .

  

     [quote][b]

bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Bob,  

I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us.  You have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our money.  It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of one place to get an answer and you came through again!  

   

Thanks! Bob.  

   

Bill B   

  

       

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 1:29 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: re: Power Opti-Miser  



 Here's an exchange with supplier of the product

 being examined:

 

 ------------------------------------------------

 From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> 

 To: customerservice(at)poweropti-miser.com 

 Subject: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data? 

 

 

 Good morning, 

 

 I'm a consulting engineer retired after 40+ years in 

 aviation and industrial electrical systems design. I've 

 been retained by a client to evaluate suitability 

 of the Power Opti-Miser to several applications. 

 

 I am writing to inquire as to the availability of 

 reports on testing cited in some of the product 

 promotions I found on the 'net. Can you tell me 

 if the product is patented? If so, can you cite 

 patent numbers? 

 

 After evaluating any technical data you might provide, 

 we'll probably order an exemplar device for evaluation 

 in our labs. Thanks! 

 

 

 Bob . . .

 

 ---------------------------------------------

 From: "Frank Garza" <frank.garza(at)usa.net>

 To: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

 Subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser Performance Data?

 

 Hello Mr. Nuckolls, 

 

 The Power Opti-Miser is Patented.... 

 

 All you questions you may have can be answered by reviewing 

 

 my website Frequently Asked Questions Page (FAQs)... 

 

 Thank you for your interest in my porduct 

 

 sincerely, 

 

 Frank (Owner) 

 

 ---------------------------------------------

 

    I have searched the website for anything that

    speaks to patents, reports or tests with no

    hits. I've written back to ask for clarification.

    I don't expect to receive a reply.

 

    Bob . . .

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       [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Bob,

 I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us.  You have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our money.  It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of one place to get an answer and you came through again!

  	


   What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for

   what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO

   idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be

   shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people

   welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist

   questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright

   light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the

   difference between being a teacher and a huckster.



   For the limited times I subject myself to what

   spews from contemporary television broadcasting,

   I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing

   to the advertisers of many products and services to

   ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW

   it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.

   Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about

   the product or service being offered. I would be simply

   dismissed as a nuisance.



  	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks! Bob. 	


   No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and

   facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.

   Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are

   important to you.



   Bob . . .

     [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser

Yes, indeed it is possible and even money saving to use such a device. I was initially puzzled how little technical stuff there was, but then I remembered that NASA worked on, published and licensed everything in the early 1980s. (Patent + 20 years...hey!).



Power-Miser technology was a big deal then: Google "Power Miser NASA" and you will get lots of info. Or search the old NASA archives or patents around 1980.



The way the thing works is er...ah...well...I think it might change the power factor to match the load. I did a lot of work on power factor correction and I can assure you saving money is possible. This works only on inductive loads as far as I remember.



The product is real, and so is the money savings. How long it takes to pay off the device varies.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Just a wag, but from long ago, I seem to recall that an electric motor

(inductor) had the voltage lagging the current by 90 deg phase (or perhaps

it was the current lagging the voltage), in any case, you get the maximum

efficiency out of the juice if the voltage and current are in phase.  I

can't recall the details, but seems I recall a capacitor was used to shift

the phase of the current to be in phase with the voltage.



Or perhaps something I dreamed as a youth {:>)



Ed



Ed Anderson



Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered



Matthews, NC



eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com



http://www.andersonee.com



http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html



http://www.flyrotary.com/



http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW



http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm



--

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Bob,

I find that yelling the questions at the TV offers some satisfaction, 

and is quicker than writing, but I'm typically stared at by those around me.

Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.

do not archive

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:

> Bob,

> I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us.  You have 

> likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully 

> explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our 

> money.  It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of 

> one place to get an answer and you came through again!

>  

   What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for

   what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO

   idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be

   shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people

   welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist

   questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright

   light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the

   difference between being a teacher and a huckster.

   For the limited times I subject myself to what

   spews from contemporary television broadcasting,

   I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing

   to the advertisers of many products and services to

   ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW

   it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.

   Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about

   the product or service being offered. I would be simply

   dismissed as a nuisance.

> Thanks! Bob.

   No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and

   facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.

   Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are

   important to you.

   Bob . . .

 *

 *

jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

You are on the right track Ed, an inductive load, such as a motor, will

produce a lagging current (the current phase angle lags, or is 'behind', the

voltage phase angle).  An ideal inductor will produce a lag angle of 90deg,

and an ideal capacitor will produce a lead angle of 90deg, hence they cancel

one another (should you have an ideal inductor and capacitor of the same

size connected to your system) and the current is thus in phase with the

voltage.

The angle between the voltage and current is called the phase relation angle

and is also termed 'phi' from the greek symbol used in diagrams to

illustrate it.  The Cosine of phi is termed the power factor.  The smaller

the angle the more cos phi tends to 1, which is what you want.  Reactive

power, which is also called the 'non-real' component of power is the

bug-bear of AC systems and one tries to minimise this.  Reactive power is

calculated by considering the sine of phi, viz: Q= VxIxsin phi where Q is

reactive power.  Active power, P, is calculated by using P= VxIxcos phi.



That as background; in AC systems most loads are inductive but the 'phi'

angle is not 90deg (lagging), but more like 30deg.  Similarly, capacitors

are also not perfect and do not have a 90deg leading angle.



When one attempts power factor correction it only really works well when

your load, and load angle (phi) is constant; then you can match capacitors

to the lagging load angle and get it as close to zero as possible.  However,

in the real world loads are seldom constant; their actual load varies,

voltage conditions vary from the supplier, and also from other nearby loads

as they switch in and out.  Thus a fixed size capacitor cannot keep the load

angle to a constant minimum.  Some power factor correction systems switch

various capacitor sizes in and out but they are normally too slow to react

accurately.  The cost of maintenance on capacitors and such switching

systems usually means that they seldom save the user costs in the long run;

a combination of the installation costs, maintenance and poor real savings

(as a result of how power is generally costed).



Newer systems employ a special transformer that can be 'driven' in and out

of saturation (which then controls its lagging power angle) and these,

together with switched capacitors, appear to be able to offer real savings

in the long term.  Their capital cost ensures that they are only used in

fairly large installations- say 400kVA and larger.



Another power saving device that one wants to steer clear of is something

called the 'Magniwork' generator.  It promises substantial power savings and

a search of the web will get many hits that appear to verify the claim.  A

colleague of mine paid the $60 for the plans and asked me to evaluate them.

They appeared impressive at first glance but it soon became apparent that it

was absolute nonsense and that the author was working on the 'bullshit

baffles brains' principle.



At least the capacitors are based on real engineering knowledge...



Jay



--

retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Yeah, my wife sometimes thinks I'm nuts when I start explaining how 

stupid some of the claims are and how what they are saying is often 

impossible.  Fortunately, I don't watch much TV so she hasn't decided to 

commit me yet.



Dick Tasker



ray wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Bob,



 I find that yelling the questions at the TV offers some satisfaction, 

 and is quicker than writing, but I'm typically stared at by those 

 around me.



 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN.

 do not archive



 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

> At 11:20 PM 12/9/2009, you wrote:

>> Bob,

>> I can’t thank you enough for all the help you have given us.  You 

>> have likely saved me (and no telling how many others) $1000 by fully 

>> explaining how this thing works and why we would be wasting our 

>> money.  It just looked too good to be true and I could only think of 

>> one place to get an answer and you came through again!

>>  

>

>   What you're experiencing is the beneficial fall-out for

>   what scientists call perpetual skepticism. There is NO

>   idea, new, old, obscure or widely practiced that should be

>   shielded from questions. Good ideas offered by honorable people

>   welcome the opportunity to share. Some folks must resist

>   questions about bad ideas when the answers shine a bright

>   light on their ignorance/dishonesty. It's the

>   difference between being a teacher and a huckster.

>

>   For the limited times I subject myself to what

>   spews from contemporary television broadcasting,

>   I sometimes amuse myself with a fantasy about writing

>   to the advertisers of many products and services to

>   ask some questions. Obviously a waste of time. We KNOW

>   it's unlikely that any answer at all will be gratifying.

>   Their sales depends on how much folks DON'T know about

>   the product or service being offered. I would be simply

>   dismissed as a nuisance.

>

>> Thanks! Bob.

>

>   No problem. Now YOU are armed with some concepts and

>   facts that qualify you to teach what you've learned.

>   Use it in good heath for the benefit of those who are

>   important to you.

>

>   Bob . . .

>

> *

> *

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Hmmmm...



I Googled "power miser nasa" and came up with nothing that had anything to do with PF correction.  Googleing "nasa power factor correction" did get some hits for power factor correction on spacecraft.  What am I missing?

Chris Stone

RV-8

--

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 08:35 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chris Stone <rv8iator(at)earthlink.net>



 Hmmmm...



 I Googled "power miser nasa" and came up with nothing that had anything to do with PF correction.  Googleing "nasa power factor correction" did get some hits for power factor correction on spacecraft.  What am I missing? 	


    I'm not sure the NASA based commercial off the shelf

    products were ever touted as "power factor" correction devices.

    WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they

    called "Tech Briefs". I used to read them as a young

    buck tech writer at Cessna about 1964. These were

    "ideas for design" offered into public domain when

    the idea was not critical to national security or

    some such. One could get a low or zero cost license

    to use the idea by petitioning NASA . . . a sort of

    back-door patent that only the government could pull

    off so slickly.



    I don't recall reading any briefs on "power saving"

    devices for AC motors but some guy name Nola at NASA

    probably published a very technical, properly

    disclosed and accurately described idea on some means

    of improving power distribution efficiency. See page 67

    from this 1980 issue of Popular Science:



  http://tinyurl.com/y8hfqla 



    Once you dump such ideas into the public domain,

    all manner of entrepreneur is free to exploit that

    information in the free market. Unfortunately,

    the human condition all but guarantees that some

    individuals will cherry pick, distort or even

    grossly mis-represent both source for and effectiveness

    of an idea.



    The corollary factor of the human condition is that

    the imagination of the ignorant and unwary consumer is

    tweaked by phrases like: "developed by NASA", "proven in

    independent laboratory tests", or even "Tiger Woods

    wouldn't be without one."



    The first flag to go up on any claim of power savings

    is to check the numbers . . . 20, 25 or even 30% savings?

    If a system that consumes say 10A at 120 VAC (1200 VAR)

    is LOOSING 30% of its consumed power, then 300 watts

    of LOST energy has to be coming off as heat. We know

    that the only way an electro-mechanical device can

    squander energy is by the diversion from useful output

    to heat (friction) + I(squared)*R. We know further that

    copper wire used to wind the motor has losses that cannot

    be "corrected for". 



    So the nameplate efficiency ratings for any motor

    (Eff% = power-out/power-in) takes those losses into

    account AT THE NAMEPLATE current draw of the motor.

    An endeavor to reduce losses from outside the motor

    can only exploit our ability to correct power factor

    thus reducing the I(squared)*R losses for the same

    power output. While the efficiency of the motor may

    go up (you now need to use more gas to heat the shop)

    the effect on your power factor corrected light meter

    is minimal. To gain 30% savings in I(squared)*R losses,

    the current reduction for same power output has

    to be reduced by 16% (.84 x .84 = .7). This means

    PERFECT tuning of power factor (hard to do). Now,

    apply these savings to a device like a table

    saw, drill press or even your air compressor.

    Assume you can wipe out ALL power factor induced

    losses for a device with a 1% duty cycle over

    a month's period of time. What "savings" are there

    to be realized?



    The TV hucksters are fond of showing you before/

    after meter readings on an unloaded motor. The

    REAL test is to put a 1 h.p. dynamometer load

    on the motor for say, 10 hours. Then do a before/after

    reading on your light-meter at the back of the house!



    This is why I asked for a test report from the

    promoter of the Opti-Miser. Any well crafted,

    properly conducted, honestly reported cost study

    of this product's effectivity would tell us exactly

    how the claims are justified.



    Bob . . .    [quote][b]

rjquillin

Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 07:31 12/11/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they

    called "Tech Briefs". 	


 And they still publish the Tech Briefs today...



  http://www.techbriefs.com/



 Ron Q.    [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser

I half suspect the problem is figuring out what to search. Miser is spelled a bunch of different ways.



This will make it easier:



Check: energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=992



Also see attached for the original Nola NASA patent. You DO believe the government don't you????

AlternaTIFF printout.pdf

Description:

Nola/NASA Power saver PDF

Download

Filename:

AlternaTIFF printout.pdf

Filesize:

39.48 KB

Downloaded:

703 Time(s)

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 10:22 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>



 I half suspect the problem is figuring out what to search. Miser is spelled a bunch of different ways.



 This will make it easier:



 Check: energyexperts.org/EnergySolutionsDatabase/ResourceDetail.aspx?id=992 	
 

     . . . and how does this article argue with anything

    I've written?



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  Also see attached for the original Nola NASA patent. You DO believe the government don't you????

 	


   What's NOT to believe? In the abstract for the patent

   (all pages posted here:  http://tinyurl.com/yeq6pvr )

   the operational description cites a REDUCTION of power

   to an unloaded motor. Okay, this is exactly how the

   Opti-Miser was demonstrated in the YouTube video.



   Now, we know that the thing was designed to work with

   induction motors.  We know that it improves on efficiencies

   that manifest during an excursion from max operating load

   to some lower load (like between cuts of lumber on

   your table saw). We read further in the Popular

   Science article that wattage  reductions (translated

   into realized savings) were most evident during

   no load conditions . . . but still manifest during

   high load situations. The article ends with the a

   caveat: "Power savers work but you have to use them

   wisely." Gee, do you suppose using them on a table

   saw, drill press or air compressor is not especially

   wise?  Okay how about the compressor motor on your

   air conditioner? That's a higher duty cycle, higher

   energy load. But does it not run pretty much constant

   load? And do you suppose that the capacitors already

   bolted to the side of the machine have been selected

   for pretty good operation out of the box?



   Further, an examination of the circuitry in the patent

   suggests why Mr. Nola called it a "controller"

   as opposed to a "corrector". The classic approach to

   power factor correction in an LCR network calls for

   incorporation of good guy reactions (capacitors) 

   complimentary to bad guy reactions (inductors) so that

   wasteful losses (in resistors) can be mitigated. Mr.

   Nola's patent offers no complimentary reaction. It

   simply watches for situations of light loading and

   reduces applied power (with duty cycle switching) to

   some lower but still useful value that keeps the motor

   spinning. It is indeed a controller . . . not a

   corrector.



   I have yet to read ANY article wherein the author

   compares real-watts-out (horsepower of a motor)

   with real-watts-in and demonstrates a positive 

   return on investment as recorded on your light meter.

   If you're aware of any such study, I'd be pleased to

   read it. Do you have access to the reports cited

   in the footnotes of the energyexperts.org article?



   This isn't about what I believe. It's

   about what I or anyone else can demonstrate. 



   Bob . . .



 



     [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 10:07 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At 07:31 12/11/2009, you wrote:

>    WAaaaayyyy back when, NASA used to publish what they

>    called "Tech Briefs".



And they still publish the Tech Briefs today...



http://www.techbriefs.com/


	


   cool. thanks!

        Bob . . .

                    ////

                   (o o)

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o=========

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   >

    < show me where I'm wrong.      >

    =================================

nuckollsr

Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Medicine Lodge, KS

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser (Speaking of Demonstrations!)

I found a number of lucid explanations on the 'net concerning the return on investment for devices like the Power Opti-Miser. One particularly engaging article has been captured and added to the reference documents library of my website:



http://tinyurl.com/y875vlp



Bob . . .

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser

Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net.  The piece you linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.



Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html   and the previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor" 



To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.



Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?



Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.



How about it?

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

At 08:43 AM 12/12/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net.  The piece you 

linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.



Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html   and the 

previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"



To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was 

made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose 

50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings are small.


	


   75 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot . . .

   Are you telling us that 50% of the energy consumed by

   your household is used to run inductive motors under

   widely variable loads wherein any capacitors that

   come WITH the motor are not tailored for optimum

   performance at the design load for the motor?



Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?



   Are you further suggesting that an improvement

   in a small fraction of losses sensitive to power

   factor amounts to . . . let's see . . . if I'm going

   to reduce my electric bill by 20% then I have to

   make a 40% improvement in the 50% of my loads which

   are motors. Oops . . . all the motors in my house

   run perhaps 20% or less . . . that suggests . . .

   WOW! . . . assuming my light meter knows that

   my motors have been sprinkled with pixie dust,

   I can run them for free!



   The reason I posted this particular article

   was due to the first paragraph. The author says

   he has at least one reader that has MEASURED

   a benefit. As a scientist he is obligated to

   play in the game called perpetual skepticism.



   Just as I have gone to the shop and made measurements

   to share concerning the physics of simple-ideas

   I use in my job, this author is going to the lab

   to confirm/deny the assertions that savings

   at the light meter CAN be realized.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and 

a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone 

with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.



How about it?


	


   Eric, you give me waaaayyy to much credit. It's not

   about expecting people to agree with me. It's about

   MY agreement with many folks who have taken the time

   to craft demonstrations and offer explanations about

   VERY OLD simple-ideas in physics.



   These are my teachers. If you don't find value in

   the explanation of what I've learned from others,

   fine. I'll confess that my own teaching methods

   may not be adequate to every honorable endeavor.



   So if we're reduced to making book on the outcome

   experiments repeated millions every day on the backs

   of folks houses, then I'll up you one.



   I'll give YOU $1000 and pay for any extra equipment

   you needed to purchase in order to set up, demonstrate,

   document and publish an article that shows a return

   on investment for adding any POWER FACTOR correction

   device to your home's wiring. Do I presume correctly

   that you have one already? The power factor correcting

   meter is already on the back of your house. But you

   can purchase some devices with finer resolution for

   $200 or less . . . add it to the tab.



   By the way, you can improve on the odds for a

   positive return on investment by purchasing capacitors

   from your local supplier and crafting your own

   magic box. Keep in mind too that present trends

   plotted into the future suggest that the cost

   of electrical power is gong to escalate markedly

   over the next ten years. Should we consider this

   in calculating return on investment for an

   effect that your light meter cannot measure?



   I look forward to reading your test setup, experiment

   procedure and the raw data. I think Mr. Bluebird would

   be equally interested in seeing it too . . . and

   he's not even risking any expense for having discovered

   it.



   Bob . . .

bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Eric,



Maybe you should read the same articles you link to more closely.   

Here is some text from the link.



"The motor controller is used in industries and applications where  

motors operate under variable loads"



I think Bob has been quite clear about PF and how this might work in  

average homes.  A quick inventory of the inductive loads in my home  

show no major variable ones.  The two biggest ones, the AC compressor  

unit and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be -  

appropriate capacitors attached.



As I do have a shop for making my airplane, I do have inductive loads  

that might qualify. However, I have been working on my airplane for  

three years and would be hard pressed to think that with the short  

time, on a percentage basis, that these tools have been on, I could  

have saved any money.



Second, the article Bob linked to had some references that certainly  

qualify as being more authoritative than you seem to want to admit.   

Following up on those references to BC Hydro and Consumer Reports lead  

to even more interesting discoveries.



This link for example...



http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2009/07/power-factor-kilowatt-hours-volt-amperes-edison-electric-institute-compact-fluorescent-lightbulbs.html



.. confirms that residential customers don't currently pay for bad PF  

- not that low PF still wouldn't be wasteful. It also has an  

interesting discussion of PF in regards to compact fluorescent bulbs  

vs incandescent bulbs.



Bob Meyers



Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html



On Dec 12, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 Gee Bob...you can find anything you want on the 'net.  The piece you  

 linked to does not come up to your ordinarily high standards.



 Check: http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/spinoff1997/er5.html   and the  

 previous postings. Google "frank nola induction motor"



 To poo-poo the device is just absurd. Let's assume the device was  

 made to save power on induction motors (which it was) which compose  

 50% of the energy load of the world. Let's even assume the savings  

 are small.



 Wouldn't that be a pretty good thing?



 Common Bob...Buck it up. I'll give $100 to your favorite charity and  

 a really good jar of Jalapeno peppers to you if you can find someone  

 with real cred who agrees with you that it is all just a scam.



 How about it?



 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 77296#277296

klehman(at)albedo.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: Power Opti-Miser

Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the 

capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do 

anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed?

Ken



 >The two biggest ones, the AC compressor unit

 	  Quote: 	
		   and the circulation fan each have - what I have assumed to be - 

 appropriate capacitors attached.

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Power Opti-Miser

 	  Quote: 	
		  Perhaps I'm dated but most capacitor start motors only used the

capacitor to get a phase change for starting. The capacitor did not do

anything for running PF correction IIRC. Have things changed?

Ken 	


There are capacitor start - capacitor run motors.  See:

 	  Code: 	
		  http://tristate.apogee.net/mnd/mfmscsc.asp 	


 	  Quote: 	
		  "The motor controller is used in industries and applications where motors operate under variable loads" 	


   I agree with Bob Meyers.  Those motor controllers are designed for industrial applications where the motor load varies.  The controllers achieve energy savings by reducing voltage to the motor when it is not heavily loaded.  Most of the motors in residences operate a fixed load and will not benefit from operating at a reduced voltage.  In fact, operating a motor at a lower then designed voltage will cause a motor (under load) to use more current.  Home appliances such as refrigerators have stickers on them in the store showing the annual operating cost.  Manufactures compete to make their appliances efficient.  It is hard to economically make the appliances more efficient.

   Adding capacitors makes sense in an industrial setting.  I worked in a factory where motors used the majority of electricity.  The power company charged a penalty for low power factor.  To avoid the penalty, capacitor banks as big as desks were connected to the primary transformers.  And some motors had capacitors installed at the motor starter.

  In rural areas, long runs of parallel utility lines create a capacitance which reduces the power factor, but in the opposite direction as inductive loads.  The utility company counteracts this excessive capacitance by installing inductors on the electric poles.  Perhaps you have noticed what appears to be transformers on poles and wondered why they were there with no houses around.

   Theoretically a Power Opti-Miser will save energy.  And theoretically a fly landing on an aircraft carrier will cause the ship to displace more water.  But is it significant?  It would seem that a manufacture of energy saving devices would conduct tests and post the results to promote their product.  The lack of test results casts doubt on the manufacture's claims.  To those who strongly believe that the Power Opti-Miser will help to achieve an energy savings, I suggest they purchase and install the unit and report back to us on the monthly savings and the payback period.  Meanwhile, I am going to save energy by shutting off the big wide-screen TV and go work on my airplane in the garage.  

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

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