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Air.....in an emergency.
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brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Bitterlich GS11 Mark G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   But.. having worked HOURS trying to get the air distributor set 

 perfectly in an M-14, it dawns on me that many different M-14's could 

 easily have many different settings on that air distributor.  One tooth 

 worth of difference does not stop the engine from rotating.  It MIGHT 

 impact the cylinder combustible mixture ratio enough to cause different 

 results in different .. otherwise identical... engines. 

  

 Is this a reasonable line of thought do you think?


	


Not that my opinion is worth much but I think you are dead, bang, 

spot-on, bloody-well right.



 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Mark

 N50YK


	


-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

N4829T(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

I've hand propped my stock 285 CJ quite a few times .... each  time I made sure the air was totally depleted from the system.   Used the following procedure:

  

 1) Used the Check List

 2) Made sure the airplane was tied down and chocked ....no air = no  brakes

 3) Made sure all the air was empty  ...exercise the brakes,  flaps.

 4) Had another Qualified CJ pilot in the cockpit.

 5) Primed the engine with the mags in the off position

 6) Guy in cockpit follows normal starting procedure and hits the  started button as I hand prop.  ......worked fine every time and usually  started with no more that two attempts

  

  WELL, there was this one time I did all of the above except this time  it coughed, sputtered but did not stay running...  I called to the pilot to  hit the starter as I had my hands on the prop but what happened this time  got my attention. When I called for the starter button one of the cylinders  fired and the prop hit the BACK side of my hands.. thank god it  didn't fire or I probably wouldn't be witting this post.  When  the engine coughed, sputtered and popped the first time it built up a small  amount of air in the system.. well, it was just enough to fire one  cylinder... so, that being said I changed number 6 (listed above) on my  hand prop check list.

  

 6) call out starter, wait until you hear the starter button and then  approach the prop after making sure the their is no air in the system...   Have had the prop kick over a few times but never with my hands in the  way. 

  

  

 Jim "Launch Pad" Plumlee

 N31103/CJ-6A

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Absolutely reasonable and quite logical Mark.  Mine is  one that absolutely will not start on pure N2.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Air.....in an emergency.

I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I have a -50...



Tim

wade154(at)frontiernet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Smash you did the right thing, usually the  problem is how do we get anything in the airplane with that  fitting?  

  

  I've been using nitrogen for 7 years  now and I've probably filled a completely drained system 5 times using  nitrogen usually after an annual that required a tank inspection. Mainly because  the engine airpump doesn't fill the emergency tank. Otherwise I would just prop  it. Think about it the air (or starting fluid) is introduced into the  cylinder on the power stroke after TDC it would take 2 rotations of  the crank before nitrogen was introduced to all cylinders. After the power  stroke the exhaust stroke pushes 90% + of whatever is in the cylinder out  be it air nitrogen oxygen mix or exhaust gases. Then the intake stroke, piston  pulls a new (fresh) air-fuel mix into the cylinder from the intake tube from the  blower from the carburetor from ambient air. Now after 2 rotations of the crank  we have possibly 10% nitrogen in all the cylinders 90% air-fuel mixture.  At 14 deg before TDC the MAG (mags hot after prop moves) sends spark to the  plug "BOOM" sometime at or after TDC (starter fluid  air-nitrogen-oxygen-mix) is introduced to the Cylinder if the start button is  held down. 

  

 Just my thought If Nitrogen is available and you  can get it in the tank use it or tie it down chock it and prop  it.

  

 I've started my plane many times with just the mags  by myself with no help if its warm I've seen it start by pulling the prop  less than 10" with hot mags. And in the winter 30 deg or less (once  with no pre heat) mags only no one in the cockpit (NOT ADVISED But I really  wanted to fly). Russian rubber sucks

  

 HOT MAGS AND PROPS ARE DANGEROUS I DO NOT ADVISE  ANYONE TO DO THIS ONLY THAT I HAVE DONE IT AND IT WORKED FOR ME! 

  

 Just as I have seen Mr. Tucker do things with an  airplane that seems impossible.

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

So I'm with Dennis. My Yak-52 (M14P) would absolutely, positively NOT

start with N2.  My Hosai powered CJ would start on N2, however now that

the CJ is M14P powered, it will not start on N2.  That said, all three

were relatively easy to hand prop. 



Dabear



Def: Relatively: once someone was found to pull the prop, it was easy.  



A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



[quote] Absolutely reasonable and quite logical Mark.  Mine is one that

 absolutely will not start on pure N2.

 Dennis

  



     ---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Tim,



Go down to your local Fire station and find out what version of the

scott bottles they use.  Then, go get a firefighter scott bottle.   Once

you have it, the main difficulty is getting a regulator to fit, but it

can be done.  Then you can get air, not N2, almost anywhere because most

fire departments use the same fittings.



BTW, some go without regulators and "slowly open the bottles" and use

the pop off valve as their protection.  Yes, you can do that.  I just

don't like opening 2400-3000psi pressure into a 700psi system.  You make

the call.



DaBear



Tim Gagnon wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I have a -50...



Tim

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

The best one I ever saw belonged to Mary Alexander and came with her 50 when she bought it.  It was a very small scuba tank.  Darn thing was only about a foot or so long and about 3 inches in diameter.  You could take it to 3000 PSI, but when put into the 50's air bottle, it was just enough to take it from zero to 700 PSI or so.  (Volume was much less in the scuba tank).    

It would easily fit in a carry bag and sit in the space right behind your head.     

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK  

 

  

--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Mark,

 It is called a "Pony Tank". It holds 3200psi. I carry one in a helmet bag with my 1st stage scuba manifold adapted to a high pressure tubing with a Schrader valve on the end. Have used it once to recharge the 52 after I forgot to turn off the air valve and it sat like that for a week. 

 Doc

  

 



  

 [quote] ---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Tim Gagnon wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I know this has been discussed before but I cannot seem to find the thread. What is a good PORTABLE source for spare air. Something lightweight and small. I have a -50...


	


I carried a 20 cu-ft "pony" SCUBA bottle. Take it out of your aircraft 

before your do your aerobatic routine.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

johnhilterman1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Be very careful and make sure you read your insurance policy….some specifically prohibit hand propping.  Mine does.  

   

Hitman  

         

  

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Shafer

 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 4:09 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Air.....in an emergency.  

  

     

From Deer Valley where the sheer volume of CJs, Yak-52s, Yak-50s etc etc make it likely that someone will not have enough air to start from time to time.  We have Scuba bottles with the appropriate fittings scattered around the airport, but Bill Blackwell is available to put some Okie muscle into starting.  (but flabby, 65 year old me can easily prop a M-14 so you don't need muscle to do it)  

    

   

    

After the engine is primed and pulled through with all the proper communication between propper and pilot, the brakes are set (if there is enough residual air) or the airplane is chocked and/or tied down.  

    

   

    

With the MAGS OFF the puller moves the blade into position for pulling.  He counts to three and pulls.  The pilot is readied by the count and AFTER he sees the prop moving, he hits the start switch.  The Start switch is not activated until AFTER the puller starts pulling.  The puller cannot be surprised by a sudden movement of the prop.  

    

   

    

Do not forget that a M-14 can be started by ANY movement of the prop with the shower of sparks on.  Just a nudge, a slight touch is enough sometimes.  Even if you have spent 20 minutes trying to start it and have run out of air.  The next minute movement of the prop might start the engine.  

    

   

    

Be careful out there.  

    

   

    

EB  

  [quote]    

---

aerobaticgirl(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Tank was completely empty.  I don't have a gauge to tell you how empty, but I couldn't get a single blade to turn and the air dump didn't have any air to dump.  

   

  Yup no prob starting it up on pure nitro, after all you breathe 79% of it.

   

  Throw the spears, getting used to it now....

   

  Smash



"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

  [quote]        Smash,

  Was your air tank completely empty or did you have some air left in it?  If there was air in it, how many ATM's.  There have been numerous discussions on the List as to whether the M14P will start on pure nitrogen vs. a mixture of Nitrogen and breathing  air.   I really don't want to open up that can of worms again.

  Dennis

   

  [quote]  ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:34 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Usually if you have less than 20 atmospheres in the tank, the  blades won't turn.  There are some engines that will start on pure Nitrogen  and some, like mine, that absolutely says, "ain't no way I'M going to start on  that stuff".  Recently someone posted the best explanation I've read on the  subject which was related to the timing of the airstart  distributor.

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

However,  before I buy that the air distributor is the issue.  I'd like

to see an engine that refuses to start on N2 get the airstart

distributor adjusted so that it will.  Until then, it is all theory. 



DaBear



A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



[quote] Usually if you have less than 20 atmospheres in the tank, the blades

 won't turn.  There are some engines that will start on pure Nitrogen

 and some, like mine, that absolutely says, "ain't no way I'M going to

 start on that stuff".  Recently someone posted the best explanation

 I've read on the subject which was related to the timing of the

 airstart distributor.

 Dennis

  



     ---

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Yep!  Good point.  I think you're right.  I for one will not try to adjust 

the air distributor on my engine just so it MIGHT start on pure Nitrogen.

Dennis

---

JBernier(at)dart.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Before we off the topic of air start. Does anyone know of a reason not to use the emergency air bottle as supplemental air for starting? If the plane won't start on "the ground" it would seem reasonable to use the air on the right side to support a start. Should be a simple tie in direct to the start solenoid valve through an isolation valve. Might be able to use that little red valve on my right side. I've never used it for anything to this point. After start you could always leave the gear down until a positive fill is observed. Just a thought.

Jim B  



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> dabear(at)damned.org 04/21/06 9:46 AM >>>

	




However,  before I buy that the air distributor is the issue.  I'd like

to see an engine that refuses to start on N2 get the airstart

distributor adjusted so that it will.  Until then, it is all theory. 



DaBear



A. Dennis Savarese wrote:



[quote] Usually if you have less than 20 atmospheres in the tank, the blades

 won't turn.  There are some engines that will start on pure Nitrogen

 and some, like mine, that absolutely says, "ain't no way I'M going to

 start on that stuff".  Recently someone posted the best explanation

 I've read on the subject which was related to the timing of the

 airstart distributor.

 Dennis

  



     ---

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Air.....in an emergency.

Jim,



I suspect you will be getting an email concering this very soon.....



Tim



It will not be me.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Before we off the topic of air start. Does anyone know of a reason not to use the emergency air bottle as supplemental air for starting? If the plane won't start on "the ground" it would seem reasonable to use the air on the right side to support a start. Should be a simple tie in direct to the start solenoid valve through an isolation valve. Might be able to use that little red valve on my right side. I've never used it for anything to this point. After start you could always leave the gear down until a positive fill is observed. Just a thought. 

Jim B

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

I suggested the same thing about a year ago Tim.  It is not hard to do.  However remember that the VOLUME in the emergency air tank is much smaller and you are not going to get as many starting attempts as you would with the main bottle.    

For the YAK-52.... don't worry about flying it back with the gear down.  Once you open your little "tie it all together valve", just leave it open and it will end up pressurizing BOTH bottles again after start.  After everything is full, just close off your little valve and you are perfectly good to go again.   

For the YAK-50, you can close off the new little valve immediately.  Your emergency air bottle ALWAYS charges off the engine compressor.  Which means in your case Tim, all you need to do is to put a by-pass around the existing check valve and you will accomplish what you are talking about.  That check valve is on your firewall right near the pop-off valve.    

Mark Bitterlich  

N50YK 

     

 

  

--

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

I am about to make the understatement of the century.      

If your M-14 air started engine now starts when you push the engine start button, DO NOT take the air distributor apart for any reason what-so-ever.    

The reason that I stated that it could be easily possible that one engine may start when the bottle is full of nitrogen and another may not.. POSSIBLY being due to the starting distributor being off one or more teeth from one aircraft to another, is simply because I have been there and assisted when one of the best M-14 mechanics on this planet took one off and spent the next DAY trying to get it back in, and get the engine cranking correctly.  His first attempt was brilliant... he put it back in, the start button was pushed, and the engine spun around like a happy merry-go round!   Only one problem.   It was spinning backwards.    

In the end... just getting it to spin the correct way, and with enough energy to start was considered to be a happy miracle.    

Others warned me of this before I ever experienced it myself.  I am warning every reader here.  NEVER pull that darn thing out of the engine unless there is simply no way to avoid it.    

Mark Bitterlich  

N50YK   

p.s. So until then, it very well IS NOTHING BUT THEORY, and it will remain that way.  Why?  Because the kind of precise adjustment necessary to prove the point correct or incorrect is in my opinion, impossible given the tools available to us now at hand. If you feel that nothing is "impossible"... be my guest... have at it.  You won't be flying again anytime soon.   

 

  

--

JBernier(at)dart.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: Air.....in an emergency.

Mark,

Understood. I would assume that this alternative would be used off home field, after an airshow. The engine should have all cylinders clean and ready to fire. It wouldn't take much to start. and would be cheaper then carrying air around. Better then hand propping and you can never forget it in the hanger. It would seem a shame to have air aboard with the proper psi that you can't use. 

I'll check the schematics of the CJ and determine the best by-pass and secondary connection. Primary being for the gear.

Thanks for the info, glad someone else tried it and it works.

Jim   



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoint.usmc.mil 04/21/06 2:30 PM >>>

I suggested the same thing about a year ago Tim.  It is not hard to do.
	


However remember that the VOLUME in the emergency air tank is much smaller

and you are not going to get as many starting attempts as you would with the

main bottle.  



For the YAK-52.... don't worry about flying it back with the gear down.

Once you open your little "tie it all together valve", just leave it open

and it will end up pressurizing BOTH bottles again after start.  After

everything is full, just close off your little valve and you are perfectly

good to go again. 



For the YAK-50, you can close off the new little valve immediately.  Your

emergency air bottle ALWAYS charges off the engine compressor.  Which means

in your case Tim, all you need to do is to put a by-pass around the existing

check valve and you will accomplish what you are talking about.  That check

valve is on your firewall right near the pop-off valve.  



Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK

   



--

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