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frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:02 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Dear fellow experimental aviators,



I'm looking at the pro's and con's of emergency parachutes. I'm sure

some people on this forums have thought about this subject and formed

opinions about it, and I would like to hear more about it. I have no

experience with parachutes nor any opinion further than that I can

imagine that there are a few occasions where parachutes could save ones

life. Even this could be unrealistic imagination of course.



Questions are:

1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight

(frozen controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb

out and let go?

2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of

structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will

G-forces pin you down in your seat?

3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to

parachutes in General Aviation applications?



Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing:

1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the

Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute?

2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try

to make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley,

or rather jump out?



Any opinions welcome,

Frans

H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hello Frans



We just have add a safety parachute system  to an Europa XS.  The parachute

system has been build aaaand installed by the  Czech manufacturer. I can

make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. If

you like we can give you all the technical specifications /details. This

year that company had already a number of emergency rescue parachute

landings in Europe.



I do not have it yet in my plane but I think about it. I am just flying with

it in this plane.



Best regards,

Hans Siedsma



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hans Siedsma wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   We just have add a safety parachute system  to an Europa XS.  The parachute

 system has been build aaaand installed by the  Czech manufacturer. I can

 make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands.


	


It is interesting. However, I was thinking about personal parachutes.



I'm wondering what the weight penalty would be for a BRS (airplane

chute)? I guess that apart from the weight of the cute it will also be

necessary to reinforce the attachment points for the chute. It could

however be an interesting alternative, but of course worthless in case

of a fire or a severe structural failure. Can the airplane be reused

after a BRS deployment?



Frans

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hans, I would be interested to see the specs/details. I'm curious as to how 

they sttached it to the Europa airframe and how the rocket and chute exit.



Kevin

---

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 I'm wondering what the weight penalty would be for a BRS (airplane

 chute)? I guess that apart from the weight of the cute it will also be

 necessary to reinforce the attachment points for the chute.


	


Frans,



I assume the weight of the BRS is around 35 kg + all the possible type specified reinforcements needed.



 It could

 	  Quote: 	
		   however be an interesting alternative, but of course worthless in case

 of a fire or a severe structural failure. 


	


Useless when fire but most structural cases probably ok because you do not need wings /tailplanes/rudder/fin/engine when landing with a chute. It is fixed just behind the cockpit.



There was an interesting article in EAA´s Sport Pilot (December 2009, pages 44-45). A test deployment of an early version of a whole-aircraft parachute recovery system was 1983. It was almost a disaster because testpilot contacted power lines and then landed to a major highway (in true California surfer-dude style, he was wearing sandals only). Since that BRS has saved 240 lives so far, according to the company. 



Can the airplane be reused

 	  Quote: 	
		   after a BRS deployment?


	


I think it is written off and only spares after landing but pilot and passengers can reuse their lives!



Raimo OH-XRT

rsementi(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Dear Hans,

 I too looked into this idea long ago and found it to be almost impossible to execute from a time and money sstandpoint. I would like to see how added it to your Europa as you mention below.

  

 Thanks,

 Richard S

 N141EW

 On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 7:38 AM, Hans Siedsma <H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net (H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Hans Siedsma" <H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net (H.Siedsma(at)inter.nl.net)>

 

Hello Frans



We just have add a safety parachute system  to an Europa XS.  The parachute

system has been build aaaand installed by the  Czech manufacturer. I can

make picture if you like. You can see the plane here in the Netherlands. If

 you like we can give you all the technical specifications /details. This

year that company had already a number of emergency rescue parachute

landings in Europe.



I do not have it yet in my plane but I think about it. I am just flying with

 it in this plane.



Best regards,

Hans Siedsma

  

 

--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Raimo Toivio wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Useless when fire but most structural cases probably ok because you

 do not need wings /tailplanes/rudder/fin/engine when landing with a

 chute. It is fixed just behind the cockpit.

It appears to me as likely that an airplane that lost a critical part of

its flying surface will start gyrating, tumbling, spinning, and not

continue with straight and level flight. If the latter would be true, it

could probably be landed and you wouldn't need a chute. I can further

imagine that if you deploy a chute from a wildly gyrating, spinning and

tumbling airplane it will wind up the chute lines or possible wrap the

entire chute around itself. What about balance? Doesn't the aircraft

need to be somehow in balance under the chute? And what if that balance

is lost due to loosing an engine (prop blade failure) or wing?

In the statistics I found about BRS, most (if not all) situations where

the BRS was used was in a pilot induced emergency. Inadvertent flight

into IMC, icing, and two cases of pilot incapacitation. None after

structural failure, so we don't have proof that it would work in such a

situation.

 	  Quote: 	
		  > Can the airplane be reused

> after a BRS deployment?

 I think it is written off and only spares after landing but pilot and

 passengers can reuse their lives!

If the airplane gets written off anyway, then what is the advantage of a

BRS over personal parachutes? A BRS is heavier and probably more

expensive, and requires modifications to the airplane (and unless

someone has gone this route before, it will remain an experiment how it

works out on an Europa).

So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far

nobody seems to have an opinion on this....

Frans

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

On Dec 14, 2009, at 5:00 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Can the airplane be reused after a BRS deployment?


	


Last time I checked...and I've had a BRS chute on my glider since the  

mid'80s...the company is explicit that their system is a life- 

preservation system, and not an aircraft-preservation system.



Cirrus pilots I've talked with have said that the BRS system has zero  

impact on hull insurance.



I suspect but cannot confirm that survivability depends in part on the  

airframe absorbing some of the impact energy...a Cirrus sales rep  

would give you the whole story.



Fred

richard.churchill-coleman
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hi Frans,



I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable

aircraft as a pastime.  I have only made about a 100 jumps from about 10'k

each.  I own and pack my own main parachute, which is a square, ram air

(therefore steerable) type wing.  My deployment system allows for hand

deployment of the drogue chute when clear of the airframe. Most

pilot/gliding reserve parachutes tend to be round (barely steerable) and

deployed by a rip cord that releases a spring loaded drogue.  My comments

therefore need to be taken in the context of what I am used to, rather than

having practised departing a spinning, broken aircraft:



1) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa in level flight (frozen

controls). Will you get hit by the tailplane if you just climb out and let

go?



If the aircraft was in straight and level flight, getting out is simple.

Open the door, let it get ripped off in the slipstream, reduce speed to just

above stall if possible, stand up on the seat, step out onto the wing, using

the cockpit rim as a handhold, sit on the trailing edge and drop off.  If

you have time and are alone, climb further out on the wing so that either

the aircraft rolls and drops you off the wing tip (preferably head first so,

if anything, it's your feet that strike the tailplane) or else if it doesn't

roll then get far enough out along the wing to definitely avoid the

tailplane when you leave the aircraft.  However, steady flight IMHO seems

like the least likely scenario in which you would find yourself needing to

leave the aircraft.



2) What are the chances of getting out of a Europa after some sort of

structural failure where the aircraft may be spinning and tumbling? Will

G-forces pin you down in your seat?



Again, once the doors are opened and gone, it's surprising how motivated you

will be to get yourself out of the aircraft.  However, there is a high risk

of being struck by the aircraft as you leave it.  Broken limbs you will

survive, but skydivers wear helmets and if you are struck and left

unconscious then you won't be pulling the rip cord.  Skydivers fit

electronic "life savers" that fire the reserve if you at freefall speeds

below 750'.  For obvious reasons you won't want one of those on your

parachute.  



3) Is there any statistics about the amount of lifes saved due to parachutes

in General Aviation applications?



No information on this sorry.



Personal opinions, in case of being forced to make an emergency landing:



1) Over water, would you opt for being the first one to try to land the

Europa on open water, or rather jump out by parachute?



Land on water - aircraft float if they land intact, parachutes tangle you up

and drown you unless you are trained in water landing emergencies and carry

a cut away knife.



2) In non-hospitalised area's (like mountainous terrain), would you try to

make the best of it and land in the trees or river down the valley, or

rather jump out?



Pretty even odds on this - on a round chute with minimum steerage you could

end up in a nasty place and injured landing in trees or on high rocky areas.

At least the airframe will take some of the impact - if it's still flying.

If there is a mid-air break up, definitely take the parachute option!



All in all, I have not considered flying with an emergency parachute for the

following reasons:

(a) They are heavy, require regular maintenance and without modification

they will not sit comfortably in a Europa seat.

(b) Gliders and aerobatic pilots wear them because of the risk of mid-air

collision (when thermalling) and loss of control - a properly maintained

Europa flown within limits shouldn't do either of these.

(c) Most light aircraft flying is done in the 2'k to 4'k height bands.  You

need a comfortable 1,500' decision height to allow you to get clear of the

aircraft to deploy your parachute and have it open safely.  That's not much

time to make the decision to abandon the aircraft and execute it.  Unless

there is a very obvious sign that the aircraft is unflyable, you probably

won't have made the abandon aircraft decision before you get below 1,500'.



Essentially, while there are circumstances where you will avoid death or

serious injury by using a parachute, they are rare in normal flight

operations.  It is usually the lower risk option to stay with and fly the

airframe.  There is at least one example in the UK of a glider instructor

telling his pupil to bale out and then going on to land the aircraft safely.



Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on a fire

extinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead.



Hope that helps,

Best wishes

Richard C-C

G-RPCC

912S Mono - well more of a wheel chock and 2 canoes at the moment......



--

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

On Dec 14, 2009, at 8:19 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So  

 far

 nobody seems to have an opinion on this....


	


Frans,



Speaking only for myself, I would consider any attempt of mine to exit  

the Europa in flight, especially w/ a chute on my back, to have a very  

low probability of success...others may be more agile.



Fred

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 It appears to me as likely that an airplane that lost a critical part of

 its flying surface will start gyrating, tumbling, spinning, and not

 continue with straight and level flight. If the latter would be true, it

 could probably be landed and you wouldn't need a chute. I can further

 imagine that if you deploy a chute from a wildly gyrating, spinning and

 tumbling airplane it will wind up the chute lines or possible wrap the

 entire chute around itself. What about balance? Doesn't the aircraft

 need to be somehow in balance under the chute? And what if that balance

 is lost due to loosing an engine (prop blade failure) or wing?


	


Frans,



I have understood that the only limiting factor to use BRS is certain level speed, which must be below BRS max operational speed. If you have lost the control of the plane because of IMC or what so ever, BRS in your only hope. It works like an ejection seat launched by a rocket. It is a life saver - not a plane saver.



Over cities or rough terrain - how to make a succesful emergency landing?



There was some years ago an old couple flying Cirrus SR22 over New York City.

They decided to join Mile High Club and started to make love with autopilot on.

Somehow they found themselves from the back seat and the plane went out of the balance totally.

They used BRS with success. Normal parachutes were not their option in this case (hard to make love with backbacks on).



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 In the statistics I found about BRS, most (if not all) situations where

 the BRS was used was in a pilot induced emergency. Inadvertent flight

 into IMC, icing, and two cases of pilot incapacitation. None after

 structural failure, so we don't have proof that it would work in such a

 situation.


	


Maybe so but it is much more challenging task to enter out of the plane than just pull a red T-bar marked "BRS".



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 If the airplane gets written off anyway, then what is the advantage of a

 BRS over personal parachutes? A BRS is heavier and probably more

 expensive, and requires modifications to the airplane (and unless

 someone has gone this route before, it will remain an experiment how it

 works out on an Europa).


	


Personally, I think a plane must plan around BRS. It is very difficult or even impossible to add BRS later.

In Europa´s case I do not believe there is an armed and fully operational usable BRS before I have seen it.



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far

 nobody seems to have an opinion on this....


	


So - with Europa - this is only possibility to use personal chute. 

For you - a sporty couple like - it is also a realistic possibility.

But not for all...some people cannot enter into or out from Europa even on the ground.



Price - my guess is that an ordinary chute is around 1000 euros and BRS over 10.000 euros + installing costs if even possible.



I wish we never need any chute. I have jumped out from the plane two times: first and last time with one single jump.



Cheers, Raimo

OH-XRT

duanefamly(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

I am not a skydiver.....that's the wife's fortay. I have built my Europa and will probably do the first flight and flight testing. I have purchased an slim backpack emergency parachute and will put up with it's uncomfortable seating while I am flying off my 40 hours and putting my project through it's paces. If the unforseen happens then I would prefer to try and fight to get out of the aircraft rather than just sit and wait for the ground to come up at me. I figure if I have an inflight fire and don't have a parachute, then I don't have any other option than to stay with the plane. I remember a movie about WWI flyers that carried a pistol for just such events. So along that train of thought. I would prefer to have a parachute, contemplate my options, and decide whether or not to use it, rather than not have the choice. So I guess it's personal opinion.



Mike Duane

XS Conventional Gear

Redding, CA



--

hurstkr(at)redzone.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Quoting Frans Veldman <frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.nl>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   So, I was considering the option of using individual parachutes. So far

 nobody seems to have an opinion on this....


	


Frans,



If I were you, I would try sitting in a Europa with a slim pack  

parachute strapped on to see if you can get comfortable enough.  From  

my experience of flying sailplanes with personal parachutes, I think  

you might find this to be a problem.



Regarding the suitability of a ballistic system in the case of an  

inflight structural failure, the way I look at it is that without it,  

you WILL be dead.  With it, it may or may not deploy successfully but  

there is a much better than 0% chance that it WILL open.  Remember,  

there is no guarantee that a personal one will deploy successfully  

either!



Cheers

Kingsley in Oz

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hi! Frans

I've "kept my head down" hoping someone would tell you that one

"Miles.McAllum....." an editor of one of the UK magazines was developing a

suitable system of slings to which the BRS could be attached. It was a major

problem since the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the

propeller.  The only place for the BRS canister would be central to the rear

of and between the back rests in the roof.  He had loads of design problems

with the then -PFA.  The forward sling required to either split the

windscreen inside or outside  and certainly visually it was going to be a

"dogs dinner"  Ultimately he ran out of steam on the project as a whole and

sold his kit on. If Miles or anyone has info contrary then I will rescind my

statements.

The rate of descent is likely to be pretty fast so ground impact would wreck

the aircraft anyway.

These things are a chance we all take so we need to be constantly aware of

"what if the donkey stops" where are we intending to land and will we likely

be cinders prior to impact ?

I think you need to be aware but as prepared as possible but then erase it

from your worried brow !

Regards

Bob Harrison. G-PTAG



--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi Frans,

 

 I'm one of those rare pilots who also enjoys baling out of serviceable

 aircraft as a pastime.


	


Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.

One reason I asked was that I heard the story of one Dutch homebuilder

who was found in mounteneous terrain. Examination revealed that he got

struck by lightning, because the controls where welded and could not be

moved. Estimates where that he had been a passenger in his own airplane

for some 20 minutes until he finally hit a mountain. He was alive until

the moment of impact.



I imagine that he would have had a fair chance if he would have had a

parachute. So this triggered the idea that parachutes might be a "must

have" option.

So, hence my question about the odds of getting out in level flight at

cruise speed. Your suggestion about slowing down to almost stall speed

doesn't apply here, but I guess the idea remains the same. 



I further assumed that a jump out over rough terrain (rocks, trees)

would be a walk away, but apparently it is not that easy.  So I

underestimate the landing speed and/or forward speed. Could you give me

an estimate about these?

If bailing out over rough terrain does not improve chances of survival

very much then a significant part of the reasons to consider a parachute

is gone.



Same with a water landing, you took that away as well. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Given the choice, I would spend the money and the weight allowance on a fire

 extinguisher, first aid kit and EPIRB instead.


	


Ok, guess you are right. I will think about it some more.



Thanks!



Frans

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

On Dec 14, 2009, at 2:58 PM, Robert C Harrison wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   "Miles.McAllum....." an editor of one of the UK magazines was  

 developing a

 suitable system of slings to which the BRS could be attached. It was  

 a major

 problem since the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the

 propeller.  The only place for the BRS canister would be central to  

 the rear

 of and between the back rests in the roof.  He had loads of design  

 problems

 with the then -PFA.  The forward sling required to either split the

 windscreen inside or outside


	


The issues related to deploying a sling so that the aircraft descends  

horizontally are handled on the Cirrus/BRS installation by burying the  

straps in a joggle which is molded into the fuselage and which leads  

to the support points. The straps are then covered w/ a layer of glass  

and finish (gelcoat?) so that they are invisable. Upon deployment, the  

straps rip thru this thin layer so that aircraft and crew float (not  

exactly gently) towards terra firma.



 From the BRS point of view, there is a fair amount of flexibility in  

locating the cannister, subject of course to C of G on a particular  

aircraft. The BRS chute on my glider mounts right on the C of G.



Exactly how one might create the recessed joggled area in a pre-molded  

fuselage would not be a challenge I'd take on. I'm surprised to learn  

that Miles determined that "the forward sling needs to be attached  

just behind the propeller"...it would appear to me that hard points  

port and starboard at the firewall would serve, but that would be pure  

speculation on my part.



Fred

A194

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

From: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, 15 December, 2009 0:23:24

Subject: Re: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)>

Exactly how one might create the  recessed joggled area in a pre-molded fuselage would not be a challenge I'd take on. I'm surprised to learn that Miles determined that "the forward sling needs to be attached just behind the propeller"...it would appear to me that hard points port and starboard at the firewall would serve, but that would be pure speculation on my part.

Fred

A194

Fred

As I understand it, the airplane needs to hang c. 30 degrees nose down so the engine/nosegear takes the initial impact. Miles had straps at front and rear to achieve this but it was a very big job and eventually exhausted his patience, not least the bureaucratic issues.

Graham

 [quote][b]

air.guerner(at)orange.fr
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:26 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

<<<<<Can the airplane be reused after a BRS  deployment?>>>>>>>



  

 Hi all,

  

 Regarding whole airplane emergency parachutes there  are some interresting videos on the BRS web site. One of them shows a RANS S6  deploying its parachute after hitting the tow rope of a glider tow over Gap  airfield in south east France.

 http://brsparachutes.com/files/brsparachutes/files/cnn_off_air.wmv

 On the same video there is a parachute deployment  on a Cirrus. They say both the Cirrus and the Rans were back in the air  after repair.

  

 Remi Guerner 

  

     [quote][b]

richard.churchill-coleman
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Hi Frans,



Mike Duane said "I am not a skydiver.....that's the wife's fortay. I have

built my Europa and will probably do the first flight and flight testing. I

have purchased an slim backpack emergency parachute and will put up with

it's uncomfortable seating while I am flying off my 40 hours and putting my

project through it's paces. If the unforseen happens then I would prefer to

try and fight to get out of the aircraft rather than just sit and wait for

the ground to come up at me. I figure if I have an inflight fire and don't

have a parachute, then I don't have any other option than to stay with the

plane. I remember a movie about WWI flyers that carried a pistol for just

such events. So along that train of thought. I would prefer to have a

parachute, contemplate my options, and decide whether or not to use it,

rather than not have the choice. So I guess it's personal opinion."



I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments

ignored the test flying phase of flying as we don't have quite the same

system in UK.



To answer your points, Frans:



1. Jump planes only throttle back to 80-100 knots in the drop run in, so not

getting the Europa back to stall speed won't matter at all.

2. My guess is that having your plane controls welded by lightning is quite

a low probability......albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen....

3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definitely be seriously injured

landing in rough terrain ....  I just think you will more often be less

injured steering the airframe into trees, river, rocks etc and letting it

take the impact instead of you.

4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall -

if you carry out a properly executed Parachute Landing Fall (PLF) then you

can minimise the risk of injury, but if you cannot control whether you are

landing in trees, water, cliff faces etc, then you may not always be able to

carry out a PLF.

5. I have done just one round chute jump in a controlled environment and I

wouldn't volunteer to repeat it.

6. The ideal is to get some training if you believe that using a parachute

is an option you would prefer.  If you can jump with a square, steerable

reserve, then a lot of these risks reduce significantly.  Also, the risk of

not deploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained.  I

learned to skydive initally because I flew hang gliders and paragliders a

lot and I wanted the training and confidence to use my reserve.  But hang

gliders and paragliders don't give you much protection in a crash so it

wasn't quite the same reasoning as I would apply to flying a light aircraft.

And of course, are you going to get your passenger trained to skydive as

well....?



I have flown aerobatics briefly (just spin avoidance / recovery training for

PPL) and been required to wear a parachute and you can get over the comfort

factor if you have to.  It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike

says.  My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much

freedom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa

accidents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have

occurred on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help.  However, other

builders may have much better knowledge than me on that front.



Good luck with your personal risk assessment!



RCC 

 

--

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: Emergency parachutes, opinions?

Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have to agree with him, and a helmet would be useful too - all my comments

 ignored the test flying phase of flying as we don't have quite the same

 system in UK.


	


We have no mandatory test flying phase in the Netherlands. I will

receive my papers (hopefully) soon, and the rest is up to me. I can

start my world tour right at the first flight if I want to. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   2. My guess is that having your plane controls welded by lightning is quite

 a low probability......albeit a bit unfortunate when it does happen....


	


I agree with you on this. There are some risks involved with flying, and

this one is one to be taken.



 	  Quote: 	
		   3. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you will definitely be seriously injured

 landing in rough terrain ....  I just think you will more often be less

 injured steering the airframe into trees, river, rocks etc and letting it

 take the impact instead of you.


	


I have not so much confidence in a Europa taking much of an impact. A

Cessna is great in this respect, but a Europa, well, I guess the nose

shatters in pieces when it hits the first rock, and then the occupants

are the ones to take the next hit. Glass plaines don't bend or get

diverted from an obstacle, they just scatter into pieces and the

remainder continues its way.



 	  Quote: 	
		   4. Round chute landings are compared with jumping off a 12 foot high wall -


	


Wow. Hmm, I'm not sure whether I would survive that even in my own level

backyard, let alone on "uneven" surface. Now I start to understand why

you think that staying with the airplane would probably be a better option.



 	  Quote: 	
		   6. The ideal is to get some training if you believe that using a parachute

 is an option you would prefer.  If you can jump with a square, steerable

 reserve, then a lot of these risks reduce significantly.


	


The emergency pilot chutes I'm aware off are of another type. Getting

something bigger, heavier, is not an option, even not in our hi-top Europa.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Also, the risk of

 not deploying your parachute properly is much reduced if you are trained.


	


Ah. So it is not just a matter of pulling the rip cord, as suggested in

the ads? Really, if this is sounding hilarious to you, I'm a complete

novice on this subject. I thought it is just a matter of pulling the

cord and then waiting in some sort of comfort while slowly and gently

descending.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And of course, are you going to get your passenger trained to skydive as

 well....?


	


I will share playing the passenger role with my wife, who also has a

PPL, helped to build the plane, and logically, we both would be wearing

a parachute, or not at all.  The occasions where we will be flying

with other passengers will be neglectable.



 	  Quote: 	
		   It is a question of personal risk assessment as Mike says.


	


I fully agree.

We participate in a multiple of community forums, from horseback riding

to flying, but I can't deny that the Europa forum is the only forum

where it is somewhat normal practice that once in a while a participant

loses his life while exercising his hobby. So, lots of our efforts go

into minimizing the risks associated with flying. Wearing parachutes

could be one thing to reduce some of the risks. But of course,

everything has a price. If wearing a parachute doesn't give much

reduction of risk (as it looks now), then we will forget about it. At

the moment it seems like we are going to do without it. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   My personal view (in a world where UK builders aren't allowed much

 freedom to change the original Europa design) is that all of the Europa

 accidents I have heard of so far in my few years on this forum, have

 occurred on take or landing when a parachute wouldn 't help.


	


I think you are right on this.



Thanks,

Frans

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