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G3i Ignition
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N777TY

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

It doesn't advance... Straight from the source:



  http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=40666

You draw your own conclusions from that..

_________________
RV-7A
N777TY

cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

OK,



making some progress on the debate, we know it doesn't advance timing.  



Does it dispel their fundamental claims, however?;

efficiency

smoother engine 

fuel saving

horsepower



Anyone have experience?



cjay

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

It likely does make engine smoother with stronger sparks. Doubtful it

does much for fuel savings, and very doubtful it makes any difference

on horsepower. However, it probably makes running LOP more feasible

with consistent and strong sparks. If you like having capacitive

discharge multiple sparks, with magneto backup, certainly reasonable

way to go. If you can't advance the timing when running at 75% and

below, you aren't going to gain horsepower nor economy from that

aspect, but you may be able to gain it by running LOP and adding

manifold pressure to reach 75% on the lean side of peak. If you can

achieve 13 gph lean of peak you will be at 195 hp and scooting as fast

as Van intended on minimum fuel.



On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 1:36 PM, cjay <cgfinney(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 OK,



 making some progress on the debate, we know it doesn't advance timing.



 Does it dispel their fundamental claims, however?;

 efficiency

 smoother engine

 fuel saving

 horsepower



 Anyone have experience?



 cjay





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 77442#277442

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

G3i Ignition

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Englewood, CO.

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

OK guys, you left me out on this topic.



This forum topic was brought up earlier today during a phone conversation so I thought I would take a look. A little confusion, however not to bad. First of all there are a lot of good facts here and some that might need a little more insight.

!) Does the G3i advance the timing beyond the magneto trigger point’s signal (NO)

2) Does it have an option to control timing (YES) manually? 

2) Is it necessary to advance the timing on a multiple spark discharge system in aircraft use? (NO) Here’s why, the engine’s  operating RPM has very small window, 2100 - 2700, not like in an automobile of 700 – 5000 rpm. When there is a small RPM operating range optimal performance and economy can be obtained with fixed timing. There is not much to gain by driving the timing all over the place. Are there benefits to advancing the timing on a SINGLE spark system? (YES) Only at lower power settings (60% or less) and higher than 12,500ft. This is a quote from Unison/ Lasar. With the understanding flame propagation here’s why. There's X amount of air/fuel mixture that goes into the cylinder creates X amount of btu. When flame travel is slow you need to ramp up the ignition timing on a SINGLE spark system to get achieve a complete burn (at) peak cylinder pressure. Now with a non advancing MULTIPLE spark discharge system with same amount of air/fuel, same amount of btu’s are created, however this done in a shorter window of time from the multiple spark ignition of the air/fuel mixture to get that complete burn. Just happens quicker. As far as the air/fuel mixture in the aircraft engine, it has a very poor atomization so multiple spark discharge just does a better job then a single spark system.

3) Field tested and testimonials show that fuel economy is improved 8 to 14% and static dyno pulls have shown an average 2 –5% in power gains with stock timing configurations. 

There are many more benefits that the G3i system offers and we are always open to any discussion or questions pertaining to aircraft ignition systems or engine management peripherals. 

Thanks for all your interest in the G3i system 



Thomas Shpakow

www.g3ignition.com

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:44 pm Post subject: G3i Ignition

Hmmm, color me skeptical.

Here's why. The vast majority of auto applications for 6 and 8 cyl 

engines with automatic transmissions operate between 1500 and 3000 rpm 

90 percent of the time, not much different than aircraft (unless you are 

a real leadfoot). Their ignition systems are also optimized for peak 

torque in that same range with advanced timing. Now electronic, used to 

be mechanical and vacuum advance. Aircraft didn't incorporate mechanical 

or vacuum advance mechanisms because the manufacturers wanted to avoid 

additional potential points of failure, not because it wouldn't add 

power and efficiency. Efficiency wasn't a goal when the majority of 

engines were certified. Oh, and Unison DID show power and efficiency 

gains at normal altitudes and cruise power settings by advancing the timing.

As for #3, I'd love to see some independent test data on the claimed 

power increases and fuel economy. Testimonials are a dime a dozen and 

worth less than said dime. Just been working long enough on auto and 

aircraft engines to have seen just about every fuel and ignition system 

marketed in the last 40 years. Can count on 1 hand the products that 

actually delivered even 50% of your claimed improvement.

KM

A&P/IA

EAA Tech Counselor

sc_acro2 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 OK guys, you left me out on this topic.

  Here’s why, the engine’s RPM operating is very small window 2100 - 
	


2700, not like in an automobile 700 – 5000 rpm. When there is a small 

RPM operating range optimal performance and economy can be obtained with 

fixed timing. There is not much to gain by driving the timing all over 

the place. Are there benefits to advancing the timing on a SINGLE spark 

system? Only at low power settings (60% or less) and higher than 

12,500ft. This is a quote from Unison/ Lasar. With the understanding 

flame propagation here’s why. X amount of air fuel mixture goes into 

the cylinder creates X amount of btu. When flame travel is slow you need 

to ramp up the ignition timing on a SINGLE spark system to get that 

complete burn (at) peak cylinder pressure. Now with a non advancing 

MULTABLE spark discharge system with same amount of fuel, same amount of 

btu’s created, however this done in a shorte!

 	  Quote: 	
		    r window of time from the multiple spark ignition of the air fuel mixture to get that complete burn. Just happens quicker. As far as air fuel mixture in aircraft engine, it is very poor atomization so multiple spark discharge just does a better job then a single spark system.

 3) Field tested and testimonials show that fuel economy is improved 8 to 14% and static dyno pulls have shown an average 2 –5% in power gains with stock timing configurations. 

 There are many more benefits that the G3i system offers and we are always open to any discussion or questions pertaining to aircraft ignition systems or engine management peripherals. 

 Thanks for all your interest in the G3i system 

 

 Thomas Shpakow

 www.g3ignition.com

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 77572#277572

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

G3i Ignition

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Englewood, CO.

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

Kelly,

These are great debates! However, it’s unfortunate that you did get the chance to stop by our booth in KOSH this year. We will be there next year 2010. If you get the chance, please stop by and meet us. Check out our products first hand. Hopefully some day you will get the opportunity to meet and or fly with one of our customers who has installed one of our systems to experience the benefits first hand. Until then, I hope to meet you someday and have a wonderful Holiday.

Thomas Shpakow

www.g3ignition.com

Andy

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 1
Location: California

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

Hi guys,

I'm one of the people that installed the G3 unit on an aircraft racing engine. It really does improve the fuel consumption (if you adjust the fuel to do so!). What I noticed was the ability to run the engine at settings that would otherwise shut the powerplant down when running on normal magnetos (without doing so when G3 was running). The G3 seems to be able to make use of the fuel much more effectively. It caught our team off guard at first (after performing a mag check in the air prior to landing -she quit on straight magnetos), but later realized that the range of adjustment had increased very considerably. It can go both ways. You can over-richen or lean to the extreme before roughness starts to sprout up. I'm a magneto guy by trade, so I'm naturally a bit cautious about seeing mags go bye bye to EI, but this one does plenty of good, without giving up my nice, old wind-up toy mags. As far as performance, we did better than we've ever done at the races. When on the ground, prior to installing the G3, the engine would not run above 2300 (on a good day). After: a cold engine, same prop, G3 on, the engine wound up to 3000 rpm with the tail chained down. Scary improvement. Its staying on the aircraft!

I'm looking forward to a truly independent, scientific battle of the ignitions. Best bang for the buck in my personal opinion, but I'm anxious to see it tested by several leaders in the experimental industry. -Andy

_________________
Do it the way you'de want it.

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

Thomas, a question:



If the system works as advertised (quicker burn due to multiple ignitions) is there a danger of too much of a good thing? Specifically, on full power take-offs, could the peak temperatures and pressures exceed design limits, and push detonation limits?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

G3i Ignition

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 11
Location: Englewood, CO.

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

Hello Bob,

No there is not an issue with pre-ignition/ detonation and cylinder pressure limits because the first spark is still at the predetermined timing, etc 25btc. The following sparks after that first hit continues with the air/fuel burn process. Cylinder temps can even run a little cooler because of the length of the combustion time is slightly shorter. Power and air/fuel management still creates an X amount of BTU’s created in the cylinder with or without an EI. RPM. power settings, ignition timing, compression ratio, etc do play their roles in harmony or self-destruct.



Thomas Shpakow

www.g3igniton.com

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cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: G3i Ignition

 	  sc_acro2 wrote: 	
		  Hello Bob,

No there is not an issue with pre-ignition/ detonation and cylinder pressure limits because the first spark is still at the predetermined timing, etc 25btc. The following sparks after that first hit continues with the air/fuel burn process. Cylinder temps can even run a little cooler because of the length of the combustion time is slightly shorter. Power and air/fuel management still creates an X amount of BTU’s created in the cylinder with or without an EI. RPM. power settings, ignition timing, compression ratio, etc do play their roles in harmony or self-destruct.



Thomas Shpakow

www.g3igniton.com 	




So Jesse, 



You asked the question.  Why don't you give it a try and tell the rest of us, what you think.



cjay

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:50 am Post subject: G3i Ignition

I'm planning to.



do not archive



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 So Jesse, 

 

 You asked the question.  Why don't you give it a try and tell the rest of us, what you think.

 

 cjay

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