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Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Bob, 

 Now you've got me thinking Z-14. If I go with  another alternator, I'm one contactor away from Z-14. 

  

 One thing that is vexing to me is that I'm using  Honeywell AML 34 switches because the aesthetics appeal to me. Problem is that  they are only available as DPST. I haven't thought about this too much, but I'm  assuming that I can accomplish the switching functions shown in  Z-14   and other architectures with the Honeywell switches, but I'll just  have to use more of them and some behind-the-panel circuitry??? I can see the  S-700-2-5 being replaced with an AML 34 and a pusbutton switch. But what  combination would I use to achieve the function of  S-700-2-10? In other  architectures I see this switch associated with some automatic function that I  don't understand.

   [quote][b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1935
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Honeywell AML switches are available in DPDT, either 2 position , or 3 position with center off.  The AML24EBA3AC04 can replace the S700-2-7 as used in Z-14

These switches will not replace the S700-2-10.  You could use two SPST switches instead, one for Master and one for Alternator.  If it is desirable to have the Master switch enable the Alternator switch, then a relay will have to be used behind the panel.  But then you add another failure point and cost and weight.  Although these switches may be more pleasing to the eye, they might not have the optimum functionality, contact rating and price compared to other switches.

Joe

 	  Code: 	
		  http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Switches/Rocker-Switches-Paddle-Switches/_/N-5g2qZscv7?P=1z0sh5hZ1yzvtnwZ1z0x3c8Z1z0z2xk&Keyword=honeywell&FS=True

_________________
Joe Gores

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

I like the AML 34 switches and AML 41 indicators too.  Here's my Z-14 

design and specs.

John Burnaby wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bob,

 Now you've got me thinking Z-14. If I go with another alternator, I'm 

 one contactor away from Z-14.

  

 One thing that is vexing to me is that I'm using Honeywell AML 34 

 switches because the aesthetics appeal to me. Problem is that they are 

 only available as DPST. I haven't thought about this too much, but I'm 

 assuming that I can accomplish the switching functions shown in  Z-14 

  and other architectures with the Honeywell switches, but I'll just 

 have to use more of them and some behind-the-panel circuitry??? I can 

 see the S-700-2-5 being replaced with an AML 34 and a pusbutton 

 switch. But what combination would I use to achieve the function of 

  S-700-2-10? In other architectures I see this switch associated with 

 some automatic function that I don't understand.

 *

 *

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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

I was looking at the Z-14 diagram and see that  I used a standard key 

switch for the starter and mag switching in place of the S-700-2-5 (in 

5/9/06 revision it is an S-700-2-7). 



A pic of my panel can be found here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=18921&page=13



Have fun with the electrical design.  Everything you need is here in 

Bob's world.  Quite a resource.



Bill "making fiberglass dust" Watson

RV10 Durham NC



Bill Mauledriver Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I like the AML 34 switches and AML 41 indicators too.  Here's my Z-14 

 design and specs.

 John Burnaby wrote:

> Bob,

> Now you've got me thinking Z-14. If I go with another alternator, I'm 

> one contactor away from Z-14.

>  

> One thing that is vexing to me is that I'm using Honeywell AML 34 

> switches because the aesthetics appeal to me. Problem is that they 

> are only available as DPST. I haven't thought about this too much, 

> but I'm assuming that I can accomplish the switching functions shown 

> in  Z-14  and other architectures with the Honeywell switches, but 

> I'll just have to use more of them and some behind-the-panel 

> circuitry??? I can see the S-700-2-5 being replaced with an AML 34 

> and a pusbutton switch. But what combination would I use to achieve 

> the function of  S-700-2-10? In other architectures I see this switch 

> associated with some automatic function that I don't understand.

> *

>

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1935
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Some aircraft use a DPST switch to control the master contactor and the alternator field instead of DPDT.  Wired like this, both the master contactor and the alternator must be turned on or turned off together.  The alternator can not be off while the master contactor is on.  Is there any disadvantage of wiring it this way?  Many TC aircraft have split master switches so that the pilot can shut off the alternator without shutting off the master contactor.  Many pilots do not understand why the master switch is split and would not know under what circumstances they should shut off the right hand side of the switch.  Has anyone ever had reason to disable the alternator in flight?

  If the aircraft is wired according to one of Bob N's drawings that incorporate an essential bus circuit and automatic over-voltage protection, then there is no need to have separate control over the alternator.  In case of high voltage, the alternator is automatically disabled.  In case of low voltage, the pilot can turn on the essential-bus switch and shut off the master switch.  In fact, why even have an alternator field switch?  The alternator field could be connected directly to the main power bus (through a circuit breaker).  I suspect that more incidents have occurred when the pilot inadvertently left the alternator shut off, then when a problem arose requiring the alternator to be disabled.  Is it better to give the pilot separate control over the alternator or is it better to keep it simple to reduce operator error?

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

At 10:30 AM 12/26/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Some aircraft use a DPST switch to control the master contactor and 

the alternator field instead of DPDT.  Wired like this, both the 

master contactor and the alternator must be turned on or turned off 

together.  The alternator can not be off while the master contactor 

is on.  Is there any disadvantage of wiring it this way?


	


   No, in fact early Z-figures proposed just that . . . before

   fuse-blocks came along. In those days, existence of a pullable

   circuit breaker made it possible to shut off the field circuit

   for extended battery only ground operations.



 	  Quote: 	
		     Many TC aircraft have split master switches so that the pilot can 

 shut off the alternator without shutting off the master 

 contactor.  Many pilots do not understand why the master switch is 

 split and would not know under what circumstances they should shut 

 off the right hand side of the switch.  Has anyone ever had reason 

 to disable the alternator in flight?


	


   Not necessarily in flight. More often one wants to

   operate battery-on while leaving the alternator field

   off as cited above. Using a simpler DPDT DC PWR MASTER

   combined with the pullable circuit breaker works too.



 	  Quote: 	
		     If the aircraft is wired according to one of Bob N's drawings 

 that incorporate an essential bus circuit and automatic 

 over-voltage protection, then there is no need to have separate 

 control over the alternator.  In case of high voltage, the 

 alternator is automatically disabled.  In case of low voltage, the 

 pilot can turn on the essential-bus switch and shut off the master 

 switch.  In fact, why even have an alternator field switch?  The 

 alternator field could be connected directly to the main power bus 

 (through a circuit breaker).  I suspect that more incidents have 

 occurred when the pilot inadvertently left the alternator shut off, 

 then when a problem arose requiring the alternator to be 

 disabled.  Is it better to give the pilot separate control over the 

 alternator or is it better to keep it simple to reduce operator error?


	


    The design goals for pilot control for all

    sources of electrical energy have been with

    us for a very long time. Whether or not you

    choose to embrace and implement them is

    a personal choice enjoyed by the OBAM aircraft

    community.



    Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Bill Bob and Joe,



Thanks for your comments and schematics. Bill's Z-14 is exactly how I plan to put Z-14 to use.



Where Bob uses a 700-2-7, theres a pin connected to the volt meter and I don't get what this circuit is about. From somebody's post, I picked up that this circuit had an auto switch function in the event of OV.

Can either of you clarify this?



Thanks,

John

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Where Bob uses a 700-2-7, theres a pin connected to the volt meter and I

don't get what this circuit is about. From somebody's post, I picked up that

this circuit had an auto switch function in the event of OV.

Can either of you clarify this?



Thanks,

John

		I am not sure about your reference to a connection to a

voltmeter, but Bob's Z-14 drawing has the S700-2-7 switch labeled as

STARTER/CROSS-FEED.  There is a light to the left of the switch which will

illuminate whenever the cross-feed contactor is activated.  This light will

illuminate when the switch is pushed up, to activate the starter,

simultaneously activating the cross-feed contactor, so you use both

batteries for starting.  When the switch is pushed down, it will activate

the cross-feed only, tying the two batteries together, but not activating

the starter.



		Hope this is the info you were looking for.



Roger

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

All,



I got Z-14 and 19 confused.



The circuit that I don't understand is in Z-19. It's the ENG BAT, OFF/ON/Auto circuit using a 700-2-10 switch. When switched to the 3rd position, contacting pin 4, what happens? Pin 4 goes to the 'Relay' pin of the LoVo monitor.



John

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

At 01:35 PM 12/27/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



All,



I got Z-14 and 19 confused.



The circuit that I don't understand is in Z-19. It's the ENG BAT, 

OFF/ON/Auto circuit using a 700-2-10 switch. When switched to the 

3rd position, contacting pin 4, what happens? Pin 4 goes to the 

'Relay' pin of the LoVo monitor.


	


  Okay. THAT drawing shows the AEC9005 Aux Battery

  Management/LV Warning module . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/LV_Warn_Fab_and_Install.pdf



  The 3-position Aux Battery switch in question offers an

  OFF function at full down, a manual ON function at

  the mid position and an AUTOMATIC management function

  at the full up position. This functionality is described

  in the document cited above.



  The 9005 is being replaced by versions of the 9024 reviewed

  at . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9024/



  with applications illustrated at . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z09A.pdf



        Bob . . .

jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Was Ammeter Help- Now about switches

Thank you Bob. I got it now.

Sorry for the confusion.



John

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