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Back up Fuel Pump
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captaindonhopkin(at)aol.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Hi gang,

 

 I believe this subject was discussed sometime ago, but I can't find the digest link for it.  We'd like to add a back up electric fuel pump in my Yak 52.  Does anyone has schematics, drawings, photos or any suggestions they'd like to share?  Thanking you all in advance.  Ciao.

 

 Don

 

   

 

  Captain Don Hopkin

 N6868Y

 myscottfree.com : Web site

   [quote][b]

harley(at)siriusconinc.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

what's wrong with the manual back-up  pump?

  

 Martin

  

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keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Hi Don,



I'm at a loss to why some people post answers like the first one you received to a perfectly legitimate question. I too, was looking to put an electric pump in my CJ. I got some great responses and the best was from Larry Pine who provided me with a fantatic schematic and cockpit view of his beautiful work. I can ask Larry if it would be OK to share. Again, it is for a CJ but it might help you out. Let me know off line.



Best,



Keith

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Kieth,

I agree with your take on that response concerning the fuel pump . When the main fuel pumps fails , the standby manual pump is on thr wrong side of the cockpit

on a CJ. This requires a lot of cross cockpit hand movement  at a critical time in the flight.

An electrical backup is a great fix for this problem.

Terry Lewis



---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Capt. Don has a Yak 52.  The primer pump on the 52 is  also used to pressurize the system side, much like the big wobble pump handle on  the CJ.  I can guarantee you the 52 requires significantly more  effort to pump enough fuel to keep the engine running if the fuel pump  fails.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

About 8 years ago there was a Yak 52 coming east from California the aircraft was new to the pilot owner and he overestimated his fuel reserve and about 5 miles from his destination airport the engine lost power he used the hand pump (primer) to make enough power to get the aircraft to the threshold the story was in the Yak club flier. So the hand pump (primer) must pull fuel from a very low point. Two questions for Dennis will an electric pump push fuel through the mechanical pump (not turning) or could you select pipe on the primer and turn it on?

 Bill Wade



 

   From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:38:05 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump



   Capt. Don has a Yak 52.  The primer pump on the 52 is also used to pressurize the system side, much like the big wobble pump handle on the CJ.  I can guarantee you the 52 requires significantly more effort to pump enough fuel to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails.

 Dennis

 [quote] ---

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.

It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Gang,



We have developed a kit for the CJ that removes both the wobble pump and primer plunger.  A stand by electric fuel pump serves as both an emergency pump and the primer.  Primer is done via a solenoid on the firewall tied into a three way switch (MOM up for prime, ON down for boost).  Kit includes pump, solenoid, hard lines (both to/from the  pump and from the gascolator to the solenoid), fittings, and picture instructions.  Please contact us off list for pricing and details.



Happy Flying,



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Keith, I'd personally love to see that schematic and installation pictures myself.  Just FYI, my UTVA-66 (made in Yugoslavia) has many of the same parts found in the YAK.  One thing that was "almost" the same was the manual priming pump.  It has been replaced with a Weldon J style 8100 series electric pump http://www.weldonpumps.com/j8100.htm

  

 In addition, an electric solenoid valve has been added so that engine priming is done simply by pushing an electric button!  Pretty cool and it works perfectly.  

  

 The 8100 series has ... quote:  " Low Pressure Drop Bypass Valve Permitting Passage of fuel through an Idle Pump"    This feature allows it to be installed in-line with the main fuel flow going to the engine driven mechanical pump.  Putting a pump in this way allows you to turn it on... then push a button to prime, or leave it running as a backup pump to the one driven by the M-14.  The GSO-480 uses a pressure carb as does the M-14.  Having fuel pressure present right at the carb allows for much easier starts in cold weather.  Fuel pressure is adjustable at the pump.  

  

 I have not put this mod in my YAK-50, but I can tell you that this thing works FLAWLESSLY in the UTVA-66, and I use it ALL the time on the hot GS0-480 engine when it tends to vapor lock on a hot start.  

  

 A much easier installation could be done in the YAK models simply by having a manual selector valve in the cockpit to replace the current manual pump, allowing selection of fuel pressure either to "system" or to "prime", along with an electric switch to turn on the pump,  I think I might even have a three position switch for the pump.  "OFF" "ON" and SPRING LOADED OFF".  Spring loaded off would allow you to select prime, and then just hit the switch a few times "squirting in fuel".  Turning it to "ON" and selecting SYSTEM, would then allow a backup to the main engine driven pump.  

  

 I'm just thinking out-loud here.  There are many ways to do it, but personally I think it's a great idea and worth doing.  

  

  

 Good luck, 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Mon, 12/28/09, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



 [quote]

From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 11:38 PM



    Capt. Don has a Yak 52.  The primer pump on the 52 is also used to pressurize the system side, much like the big wobble pump handle on the CJ.  I can guarantee you the 52 requires significantly more effort to pump enough fuel to keep the engine running if the fuel pump fails.

 Dennis

 [quote] ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Could you post that info to this list as well? 

  

 I think it is valuable information.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 12:39 PM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.

It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopicp;  the Contribution link below to find out more ww.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/con;                 -Matt Dralle, Lisr?Yak-List" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List  --> 



	
 [quote][b]

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Would like to see that, too...

On Dec 29, 2009, at 12:39 PM, Dale wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I sent Don the information and photo's on my 52TW he can copy.

 It uses a electric fuel boost pump as intalled from Russia.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79103#279103

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Simple- the fuel pump ( $43.00 ) is mounted parallel  to the engine driven pump.  Fuel is taken from the gascolator/screen and delivered to the inlet side of the bubbler from the engine driven pump ( not on a CJ ).  The Facet pump has a internal check valve keeping fuel from going back to the gascolator. Turning on the pump charges the carb for starting as well. Have fun with the plumbing.  The TW uses hard lines but no reason hose can not be used. Facet # 40164 - 24V Neg. Ground, 4-C PSI Max, 30 GPH, 1/8 x 27 internal pipe ports.  This install does not interfear with the normal flow of fuel. One switch one pump with 2 lines and fittings.  Should cost under $150.00 for everything.

talew(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Hi Dale,

What is a bubbler ?

Terry



---

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

Bubbler removes the vapor from the fuel and returns it back to the system prior to being sent to the final fuel screen and on to the caburator.

Normally only found on a Yak or a CJ if it's lucky. Located on the right side of the firewall about the size of a softball. Looks a little like Sputnik.

Yaks have the balls and CJ don't ( normally ).

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

What you suggest makes sense.  The Facet pump is a VERY good pump. However I am curious.  



 This is a "six of one, half a dozen of another" kind of question, but which method would be better do you think?  

  

 Putting a pump in parallel as you describe, or putting a pump in series as I mentioned?  

  

 If a pump in series failed for some reason and parts clogged it up, you would of course lose engine fuel and that would be that!. 

  

 If the one way check valve in the Facet pump failed and went "bi-directional" in a parallel arrangement, the engine pump would cavitate and the same thing would happen.  No engine fuel.  

  

 Which way is better?  

  

 On my UTVA it is in series.  I am NOT saying "that is a better way".   I am curious what others think and why.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

  

  

  

 --- On Tue, 12/29/09, Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Dale <hdinamic(at)qwest.net>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Tuesday, December 29, 2009, 5:35 PM



 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <hdinamic(at)qwest.net (hdinamic(at)qwest.net)>



Simple- the fuel pump ( $43.00 ) is mounted parallel  to the engine driven pump.  Fuel is taken from the gascolator/screen and delivered to the inlet side of the bubbler from the engine driven pump ( not on a CJ ).  The Facet pump has a internal check valve keeping fuel from going back to the gascolator. Turning on the pump charges the carb for starting as well. Have fun with the plumbing.  The TW uses hard lines but no reason hose can not be used. Facet # 40164 - 24V Neg. Ground, 4-C PSI Max, 30 GPH, 1/8 x 27 internal pipe ports.  This install does not interfear with the normal flow of fuel. One switch one pump with 2 lines and fittings.  Should cost under $150.00 for  everything.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=279139#279139

http://www.matronics.com/contributionnbsp;--> http://f=======================





	
 [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Question: What's wrong with the manual backup pump?  

 Answer:  There isn't one.  

  

 There is a manual priming pump.  This same manual pump can also be used to put some initial head pressure to the engine driven pump (system).  

  

 However, using this pump to keep the engine going if the engine driven mechanical pump fails (a geared pump) is highly unlikely.  Yes, it could be used to stretch a glide, etc., etc., but you are going to be one busy bee trying to pull that thing in and out fast enough to keep the engine actually running.  I think a good way to describe trying to do that would be best said as using the plunger pump to carry the aircraft to the scene of the accident.  

  

 There are indeed stories of people that have claimed to have actually pulled this off, but honestly.... I have my doubts.  That plunger pump is is not a continuous pressure pump and at best you are going to get quick "shots" of power as you pump the crap out of this thing.  

  

 An electric pump would indeed meet the definition of a "backup fuel pump" while also being a very cool tool for priming.   

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Mon, 12/28/09, harley(at)siriusconinc.com <harley(at)siriusconinc.com> wrote:



 [quote]

From: harley(at)siriusconinc.com <harley(at)siriusconinc.com>

Subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com, captaindonhopkin(at)aol.com

Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 4:38 PM



    what's wrong with the manual back-up pump?

  

 Martin

  

  

 [quote] ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

Bill,

 If one installs an electric primer pump on the Yak 52, it  should be in the primer line which is a 6 mm line coming from the fuel junction  just below the front seat to the primer pump.  The procedure would be to  turn the primer pump to the left (system side) then turn on the electric  pump.  This will pump fuel through the mechanical pump which would be more  than what you could pump with the hand primer pump.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

In the event of a total failure the engine driven pump has much larger lines feeding the bubbler and the would cause the Facet  to act like a pressure relief valve to the extent of the leak or bypass which would need to be a total failure and them I don't see how all the fuel would bypass.  The pump should not cavatate any more than a fuel pressure relief in a Duke pump or a Weldon with pressure relief.  This is how Aerostar installs it in the Yak.

Dale

Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Back up Fuel Pump

I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the boost pump if you think the one in pump might fail for all the money you save buying the Weldon and still retain you original system without messing with the primary line.  A pump in series would also be trying to push fuel through a " don't forget" gear drive pump that has failed which is why the boost pump is there to begin with.

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: Back up Fuel Pump

I would think the mechanical fuel pump output that is plugged up  

(which used to go to the oil dilute) could be used for the Facet  

output. Is that true, or wouldn't that work? I assume you'd have to do  

some mix and match fittings for the input side. Does anyone  if  

Aerostar now using American sizes, or some kind of conversion to use  

the Facet pump?

Remarks?

On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:03 PM, Dale wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I forgot to add that with the parallel system and the Facet you have  

 enough room that you can put in 6 check valves downstream of the  

 boost pump if you think the one in pump might fail for all the money  

 you save buying the Weldon and still retain you original system  

 without messing with the primary line.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 79161#279161

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