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Foreign owner of British registered Europa

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skanderup

Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 11
Location: Denmark

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

Hi All,



I would like to hear if anyone could guide me on the rules regarding foreign ownership of an Europa which stays on British registration.



I have seen some good offers on British registered Europas for sale, however the Danish regulations does not permit importation of an aircraft build according to the experimental aircraft regulations. I am therefore exploring the option of taking the plane to Denmark but keeping it on British registration.



I am looking for information on two issues in this regard:



1) Official registration requirements from the National authority

2) Requirements for maintenance and service to uphold certificates (LAA requirements etc).



I look forward to the responce.

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:49 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

You will have difficulty with the LAA. They might allow a short term 

situation but unlikely permanent. Inspections would probably need to be 

done in UK. If permit expires it would be illegal to test fly outside UK

Graham



On 10/01/2010 18:04, skanderup wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All,



 I would like to hear if anyone could guide me on the rules regarding foreign ownership of an Europa which stays on British registration.



 I have seen some good offers on British registered Europas for sale, however the Danish regulations does not permit importation of an aircraft build according to the experimental aircraft regulations. I am therefore exploring the option of taking the plane to Denmark but keeping it on British registration.



 I am looking for information on two issues in this regard:



 1) Official registration requirements from the National authority

 2) Requirements for maintenance and service to uphold certificates (LAA requirements etc).



 I look forward to the responce.

frans(at)paardnatuurlijk.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

On 01/10/2010 07:04 PM, skanderup wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I would like to hear if anyone could guide me on the rules regarding

 foreign ownership of an Europa which stays on British registration.

 

 I have seen some good offers on British registered Europas for sale,

 however the Danish regulations does not permit importation of an

 aircraft build according to the experimental aircraft regulations. I

 am therefore exploring the option of taking the plane to Denmark but

 keeping it on British registration.


	


The Brits don't care about it. But it is questionable whether the Danes

will allow you, citizen of Denmark, to own a foreign registered

experimental aircraft.



Frans

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

Graham, are you sure about the LAA not being happy with that? The LAA did not make any issue or gave me any warning about that when I bought mine a little over a year ago.



You are right about test-flying outside of the UK once the permit has expired: once expired, you have to test-fly within the UK.



Inspections can be done outside the UK though, the only requirement for that is you have an LAA-inspector come over and do the inspection and sign of the paperwork. 



From practicality, keeping it on the UK register does pose some issues: it either will be quite expensive (having to pay for travel/accomodation for having an LAA-inspector fly over) or time-consuming (for having to fly to/from the UK to perform the inspection). That was my main reason for moving mine to the Dutch register.



Cheers

Marcel

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:55 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

Perhaps you could order a new engine mount from the factory and have the

"WORLDS FASTEST BUILD TIME" if you get my meaning



good luck



craig



--

skanderup

Joined: 10 Jan 2010
Posts: 11
Location: Denmark

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

Thanks for your replies until now, but I think I did not specify clearly that it was an already completed aircraft I was looking at which had been flying several hundred hours on British registration before being put up for sale.



I hope someone can help me out.



Thanks,

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

Hi Marcel

No, I'm not sure. I used to inspect 2 Europas in Germany but PFA didn't 

like it and said "never again" at the time but goal posts do have a 

habit of moving

Graham



On 10/01/2010 19:29, zwakie wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Graham, are you sure about the LAA not being happy with that? The LAA did not make any issue or gave me any warning about that when I bought mine a little over a year ago.



 You are right about test-flying outside of the UK once the permit has expired: once expired, you have to test-fly within the UK.



 Inspections can be done outside the UK though, the only requirement for that is you have an LAA-inspector come over and do the inspection and sign of the paperwork.



 > From practicality, keeping it on the UK register does pose some issues: it either will be quite expensive (having to pay for travel/accomodation for having an LAA-inspector fly over) or time-consuming (for having to fly to/from the UK to perform the inspection). That was my main reason for moving mine to the Dutch register.



 Cheers

 Marcel

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

 	  Quote: 	
		  that it was an already completed aircraft I was looking at which had been flying several hundred hours on British registration 	


You are doing exactly the same that I did about a year ago (my plane was completed and flying when I bought it), this is what I experienced :



I did not have to do with Dutch authorities, except that I was told by Dutch CAA to get approval to fly my airplane in Holland (although that official point of view was open for debate since nobody was able to point me to the Law that said so). 



Please do realize that each country has different rules on flying foreign-registered aircraft within their airspace; check the "Flying From UK into Europe" document (http://www.europaclub.org.uk > For Pilots > Going Foreign > Permission to fly in European Countries) for details. Denmark is listed as not requiring special permission, that would make things easy for you.



I'm not sure what you mean with "importation" in your original question. 



If you meant that you cannot transfer completed foreign homebuilts to the Danish register, how about leaving it on the foreign register and operate it from Denmark? (please read back my first reply for the most significant implications)



This automatically leads to other possible interpretation of aforesaid "importation":

If you mean that Danish Laws do not allow you to base and operate a foreign registered homebuilt (e.g. without doing a transfer to Danish register), I would recommend you to have Danish authorities show you the exact Article of the Law that tells you that you can't do that. I would be highly surprised if the Law would prevent you from doing so because to me that seems to be contradicting with several EC Laws; if this indeed is the case, buying a completed foreign homebuilt would not be an option to you.



Regarding maintenance a.s.o. you will have to comply with UK Laws. All information on these to be found on www.caa.co.uk.



Because UK CAA has delegated a lot of things regarding Class-A Permit-Aircraft to the LAA, you will be dealing with the LAA (http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/) quite a bit, most importantly for annual inspections and modifications approvals. Please realize that the LAA is a great resource for knowlegde and skills too (as is the Europa Club, membership of both are highly recommended when owning a Europa)!

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

On 01/11/2010 01:36 PM, zwakie wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   This automatically leads to other possible interpretation of

 aforesaid "importation": If you mean that Danish Laws do not allow

 you to base and operate a foreign registered homebuilt (e.g. without

 doing a transfer to Danish register), I would recommend you to have

 Danish authorities show you the exact Article of the Law that tells

 you that you can't do that. I would be highly surprised if the Law

 would prevent you from doing so because to me that seems to be

 contradicting with several EC Laws; if this indeed is the case,

 buying a completed foreign homebuilt would not be an option to you.


	


It could be the case though, as the definition of "homebuilt" aircraft

and associated laws differ from one country to the other.

If it would be possible for UK-builders to register their airplane in

the Netherlands, and still operate it in the UK, this would be an easy

way to get approval for even the wildest mods to the airplanes.  Why

would anyone in their right mind register an airplane in a country with

very limiting restrictions, like the UK, if there is actually no law

telling you to do so?



IS it actually possible to register your airplane anywhere, regardless

of citizenship and intended country of operation, just to circumvent

some local rules?



Now my airplane with quite some mods has gone through the Dutch

registration process, I could transfer it to British registration, so I

don't have to invest in a mode-S transponder and 406 MHz ELT. That would

give the best of both countries. All the mods approved, no useless

avionics.   



(Oh, and don't mis-interpret my remark about restrictions regarding

mods. Of course I consider it worthwile to have mods double checked. But

we all know that there are quite some innocent mods, applied by many

others already, where the requirement to get individual approval is

quite a nuisance. At least it seems so.)



Frans

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

 	  Quote: 	
		   It could be the case though, as the definition of "homebuilt" aircraft

 and associated laws differ from one country to the other.


	


That's exactly why I suggested to do a thorough investigation on what

Law prescribes, not only in Denmark but also for other countries in

Europe.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If it would be possible for UK-builders to register their airplane in

 the Netherlands, and still operate it in the UK, 


	


It may sound weird, but it seems possible to do just that: I know of at

least one person from Germany that has an approved Dutch C/S reservation

for his project.

 

I agree with you on the potentials for 'regulation-circum-navigation'!

IMHO, it clearly shows a lack of good airmanship when safety is

sacrificed over regulations...



Marcel

PS

I guess by now you're ready for PH-DIY's first flight? (if only the snow

would disappear)

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Foreign owner of British registered Europa

The information I got from the German aviation authority (LBA) is, that it's legal to operate an experimental in Germany on a foreign register as long as it's an "ECAC-country" (to which Great Britain belongs). In my recall the same applies to the scandinavian and other ECAC-countries between each other reciprocal.



But I'm quite sure, that the annual inspection has to be done in England. 



In due time I will also search on the british market for a used Trigear.



Good luck!

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