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Alternitive Kolb Engines
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

John

Yes I was impressed with your airplane it flew better than I imagined at Monument Valley, thanks again for the ride. But Mike Welch summed it up well. Some people just can't afford the price of a 912 Rotax. My goal is to lower the cost of safe flying so more people can. If people only buy Rotax engines the price will sky rocket even more than it already has. If I sound anti Rotax it is only because Rotax has the market sown up with maybe the best engine money can buy for the big Kolb airplanes , they know it, and they are profiting as much as they can. That makes it even more important, even for those of you that do buy a Rotax engine, that there are alternatives.

Your welcome.

Hey John I don't seem have your E-Mail address down here in Florida. Would you send me a message off list NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)

Do not archive

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

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John Hauck



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:23 pm    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Rick/Gang:

I understand completely, and was being somewhat facetious in some of my comments about you and 912 engines.

If I had access to a 4 stroke alternative engine that would provide as good performance, service, and reliability as the 912 series engines, for a lot less money, I'd be the first in line to get one.

You guys that are working on alternative engines need to get them operational and get some hours on them. Make some significant flights. Fly them to Oshkosh, Lakeland, and other flyins. Show folks you have something to compete with the performance and reliability of the 912 series engines, by getting out there and doing it. By getting out there and putting hours and miles on them, you encourage others to do the same.

john hauck
mkIII
titus, alabama

[quote] Yes I was impressed with your airplane it flew better than I imagined at Monument Valley, thanks again for the ride. But Mike Welch summed it up well. Some people just can't afford the price of a 912 Rotax. My goal is to lower the cost of safe flying so more people can.

Rick Neilsen

[b]


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lucien



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

John Hauck wrote:
Rick/Gang:

You guys that are working on alternative engines need to get them operational and get some hours on them. Make some significant flights. Fly them to Oshkosh, Lakeland, and other flyins. Show folks you have something to compete with the performance and reliability of the 912 series engines, by getting out there and doing it. By getting out there and putting hours and miles on them, you encourage others to do the same.

john hauck
mkIII
titus, alabama


Agreed. The problem Rotax has always presented to their competitors is that they work at the job of cranking props on airplanes. This is probably the ugliest duty you can assign to an Otto-style engine, except perhaps certain types of racing. Somehow they've solved this particular problem on their engines.
In the 2-stroke market, the Rotax were (and still are) the only models that could truly do continuous high power for X number of hours where X is a known value, without burning up or spooling up parts. You pretty much just bolt them on and go fly, and they run for a pretty well known legnth of time before needing something major done to them.

The early (non-provision) models were basically sno-mo conversions with pretty much the only difference being the exhaust. Those did break cranks and had occasional cooling problems. But those problems were solved with the provision 4 and then 8 crankcases and new crankshafts, a piece of metal rivetted into the cooling shroud and the introduction of the gearboxes. The C box is probably the best 2-stroke gearbox design on the market.

Now you literally just hoist it out of the box, bolt it to the plane, hook it up, break it in and go fly. None of the competitors that I know of can really boast that at the current time. The jetting chart is probably worth the cost of the engine all by itself, if you were having to come up with this yourself with your own design.

As for the 912, it's pretty much the same thing. We know how to run them, install them, jet them and prop them.

In light aircraft 4-strokes, the only competitor I know of that's approaching that is Jabiru. But they're still working the bugs out, still some kind of scary problems going on there from what I've been able to gather about them. And they don't have a PSRU, which you'd really need to use them on a plane like the Kolb due to their still relatively high-rpm operation.

So.... I hate to say this because I hate Rotax too, but you really do get an awful lot for your 20 grand when you buy a 912 and same with any of the Rotax 2-strokes. Most of the grunt work as far as installation, running, etc., has already been done for you.

There's a lot more to it than just the engine itself. It's all the other knowledge and debugging that's already gone into them. Unfortunately, Rotax is still at the top of the heap as far as all these extras go.

So in my view that's kind of what the competitors are up against and why so many of them have failed. And the aviation market is not something fun to try to sell anything into what with all the litigation and such garbage you have to deal with....

LS


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:18 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

John and all, I'll bet Rick N. WOULD take a free 912. -even without the hugs and kisses. And so would I.But part of the alternative engine story is a willingness to experiment with an experimental airplane to
take advantage of the very liberal regulations that we enjoy in the USA. Somehow buying a kit and
inserting tab A into slot B according to the instructions and bolting on a ready to run engine doesn't quite fill the bill.
Different strokes for.... I've been primarily a local hop flyer and doubt I'll ever change. Just the thrill of getting off the ground
and enjoying the earth from a vantage point most never get satisfies me. Grinding off the miles isn't my thing. Don't like
long trips in cars either. -Did that transcontinental stuff a couple times as a youth, -no more.
Even the ride at 30,000' and 530 MPH in a Boeing takes too long to get to Florida. I'd need at least mach 3.
The last part of not putting more time and $$$ into an airplane is two-fold. I'll be 70 next birthday and won't be getting
involved in another long project. Don't want to be a one trick pony, there are other things to do. I can push the Kolb
out any time I want, go for a bike (pedals) ride, hiking, stuff that doesn't require sitting and burning gasoline and is good for you.
-while I still can.
BB
do not archive

On 30, Jan 2010, at 1:20 AM, John Hauck wrote:
Quote:
Rick/Gang:

I understand completely, and was being somewhat facetious in some of my comments about you and 912 engines.

If I had access to a 4 stroke alternative engine that would provide as good performance, service, and reliability as the 912 series engines, for a lot less money, I'd be the first in line to get one.

You guys that are working on alternative engines need to get them operational and get some hours on them. Make some significant flights. Fly them to Oshkosh, Lakeland, and other flyins. Show folks you have something to compete with the performance and reliability of the 912 series engines, by getting out there and doing it. By getting out there and putting hours and miles on them, you encourage others to do the same.

john hauck
mkIII
titus, alabama

Quote:
Yes I was impressed with your airplane it flew better than I imagined at Monument Valley, thanks again for the ride. But Mike Welch summed it up well. Some people just can't afford the price of a 912 Rotax. My goal is to lower the cost of safe flying so more people can.

Rick Neilsen



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:40 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

John

Yes, maybe I wasn't clear, if someone hint hint ....wants to GIVE me a free 912 I could figure a way to get it mounted on my improved engine mount. Or... I could sell it and build another plane. My wife says no more planes without going back to work.

Do not archive

Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
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lucien



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote:
John and all, I'll bet Rick N. WOULD take a free 912. -even without the hugs and kisses. And so would I.But part of the alternative engine story is a willingness to experiment with an experimental airplane to
take advantage of the very liberal regulations that we enjoy in the USA. Somehow buying a kit and
inserting tab A into slot B according to the instructions and bolting on a ready to run engine doesn't quite fill the bill.
Different strokes for.... I've been primarily a local hop flyer and doubt I'll ever change. Just the thrill of getting off the ground
and enjoying the earth from a vantage point most never get satisfies me. Grinding off the miles isn't my thing. Don't like
long trips in cars either. -Did that transcontinental stuff a couple times as a youth, -no more.
Even the ride at 30,000' and 530 MPH in a Boeing takes too long to get to Florida. I'd need at least mach 3.
The last part of not putting more time and $$$ into an airplane is two-fold. I'll be 70 next birthday and won't be getting
involved in another long project. Don't want to be a one trick pony, there are other things to do. I can push the Kolb
out any time I want, go for a bike (pedals) ride, hiking, stuff that doesn't require sitting and burning gasoline and is good for you.
-while I still can.
BB
do not archive


I probably should say I wasn't trying to detract from you true experimenters out there, without whom we wouldn't be where we are today.

Shortly before I left TX I got to spend some time with a local who was putting a mazda 20B rotary in a lancair. That was a simply amazing piece of work and engineering (it did eventually fly and to my knowledge is still flying).

Also, I can barely even put tab A into slot B, so I can only imagine what life would be like with both an experimental plane _and_ engine for those first few hours......

OTOH, I remember when I replaced the engine on my FS II shortly after I bought it. The entire replacement job was done in a day and the plane was flying normally at the end of the next....

I've been doing more cross-country flying lately, at least until the WX stopped me, to get back into it and relearning how to navigate, manage weather etc. I do tend to like the fact that the engine is a fully tested quantity in those situations and the plane too (since I didn't build it).

My remaining big goal in this life to build my own and fly that - for that, tho, the truly experimental part will be my workmanship on the plane and likely not the engine. So I'll have to go with something tried/true there.

But guys like Rick et. al. who do experiment with the engine too have my undying and individed respect for sure, abilities and gumption that I can only aspire to.....

LS


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Thom Riddle



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Lucien said: ....In light aircraft 4-strokes, the only competitor I know of that's approaching that is Jabiru. But they're still working the bugs out, still some kind of scary problems going on there from what I've been able to gather about them.....

Having owned several 912UL powered airplanes and now flying a Jabiru 2200 powered Kolb, I can tell you that the vast majority of the problems you've heard about regarding the Jabiru engines were self-inflicted by the owners/builders who did not follow the Jabiru installation and/or operation & maintenance manuals. Most of the overheating problems occur in fully cowled tractor configurations in which the cowling exit was not designed/built correctly. If the kit manufacturer provides a FWF kit, and the builder follows the installation manual, overheating is a non-issue unless way too much time is spent on the ground. This is one area that liquid cooling or fan-cooling has a real advantage, whether the engine is a Jabiru or Lycoming. With my engine hanging out in the breeze I don't even need an oil cooler to stay in the green in both oil temp and CHT.

One problem found when they went to hydraulic lifters a few years ago was that they needed a vent in the rocker chamber to improve the oil flow. An SB was issued which was easily and quickly complied with in the field that corrected that problem that should have been caught before it was released. I know of no other big issues that are not largely self-inflicted. Anyone who has been around Rotax 912 engines for a while knows that you can't treat them like Lycomings and expect them to last long, and most problems found by owners of 912 engines have been self-inflicted due to ignorance, just like on Jabirus.

Both Rotax and Jabiru are in a process of continuous design and make periodic changes to improve the product or reduce the cost to manufacture and support them.

That said, I like the 912UL a little better than the Jabiru 2200, mostly because of the PSRU which gives lower prop noise at cruise rpm. If propped correctly, the difference in low speed thrust is not an issue unless you fly in/out of a really short/tight field, like John H does. BUT the Jabiru does have some advantages over the 912, which I won't bother to list here. Both are very good engines if installed and operated properly. Likewise, both can become boat anchor very quickly if you don't follow the proper procedures.

I admire anyone who is experimenter enough to try unproven engines in their flying machines. I'm just not one of them.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Thom,

Speaking of the Jab again, a couple other problems I've heard about that I still keep hearing about are high oil consumption in certain (seemingly random?) cases and problems with fretting where the flywheel attaches to the crankshaft. I think the latter is with the 2200 but can't remember offhand.

Those are two of the scary things I keep hearing about on the Jab lists that I havn't heard whether they're resolved or not.

Another is problems with the distributor where there's wearing on the shaft or something along those lines.

Any ideas or info about those by chance? Obviously, since I'm not an owner I only have the reports I read on lists and so on to go on and don't have access to what Jabiru themselves actually have said about it (other than perhaps service bulletins).

We've corresponded about this already, but when I do eventually decide to build (a Kolb is one of the planes on the list) the Jab is one of the engines I'm considering (probably the 2200).

LS


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:08 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

At 05:43 AM 1/30/10 -0800, you wrote:
Quote:


Quote:
So.... I hate to say this, but you really do get an awful lot for your 20
grand when you buy a 912 and same with any of the Rotax 2-strokes. Most of

the grunt work as far as installation, running, etc., has already been done
for you.
Quote:


Lucien,

In my experience with two cycle engines, there seems to be plenty of "grunt
work" left. For all the good things that Rotax and others have done to adapt
two cycle engines for aircraft, they have not provided the pilot with a means
for effective engine management. I believe the inability, during flight, to
adjust air fuel mixture is the largest single cause of premature two cycle
engine failure.

Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

I believe the inability, during flight, to
Quote:
adjust air fuel mixture is the largest single cause of premature two cycle
engine failure.

Jack B. Hart FF004


Jack H/Gang:

If you and I really knew what the numbers were, I bet there would be far
more engine outs and engine failures caused because the pilot had in flight
manual mixture control. Not only two strokes, but certified aircraft
engines as well. You don't hear about it normally, but a lot of pistons and
valves are burned in Lycomings and Continentals because of overagressive
leaning.

First engine out I experienced was caused by a CPS remote mixture control on
my Cuyuna ULII02 powered Ultrastar, December 1984. The Cuyuna was very
sensitve to main fuel mixture changes. Had a bad habit of shutting down
completely if it went a hair over the rich side, just like hitting the kill
switch.

Seems to me you are more interested in fuel economy than performance, and
that is what drives your desire to lean out your two strokes to the max.
Based on the number of engines you have gone through and the number of hours
flown, you probably still have a lot of experimenting to do before you get
your system simple and reliable. I wish you a great deal of success with
your experiments.

It is very difficult to remember to manage a main fuel mixture control in an
ultralight, whether two or four stroke. One of our Kolb List members
experienced an engine out with a 4 stroke because of mismanagement of a
manual main fuel control.

john h
mkIII
titus, alabama


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

> That said, I like the 912UL a little better than the Jabiru 2200, mostly
because of the PSRU which gives lower prop noise at cruise rpm. If propped
correctly, the difference in low speed thrust is not an issue unless you fly
in/out of a really short/tight field, like John H does. BUT the Jabiru does
have some advantages over the 912, which I won't bother to list here. Both
are very good engines if installed and operated properly. Likewise, both can
become boat anchor very quickly if you don't follow the proper procedures.
Quote:


Quote:
Thom Riddle


Thom R/Gang:

I don't know much about Jabiru engines. Never flew an aircraft powered with
one. I have flown quite a bit with John Williamson when his Kolbra was
Jabiru powered.

Like all direct drive engines I am familiar with, the Jabiru powered Kolbra
was anemic during take off and climb, with about equal cruise speed of my
912ULS powered MKIII. John W and I flew several long cross country flights
together when he still had the Jabiru on the Kolbra. There was no
comparison between take off and climb performance between the two airplanes.
All that changed when he repowered with the 912ULS. We met at Canon City,
Colorado, on the way to Monument Valley, UT. Next morning we took off for
Leadville, CO. John W took off first and I never was able to catch him. He
was about the same breaking ground, but would out climb and out run me from
then on. The 912ULS made a considerable difference in performance. There
was a lot more difference between the two engines than a noisy prop.

I'm not trying to defend the engine I fly nor degrade the engines others
fly. I am interested in learning more about my engine and others. I wish
you would please share with us the advantages you referred to above, of the
Jabiru over the 912.

The New Kolb Aircraft Company tried powering Kolb aircraft with the Jabiru
and the Verner. Neither engine lasted more than part of a season before
they were replaced with the 912ULS. John W went the same route before he
installed the 912ULS. There is a big difference in performance, and so far
there is nothing that will touch a 912 on a MKIII, MKIIIx, Kolbra, and Sling
Shot. Wish I had first hand experience flying with the Jabiru and Verner on
a Kolb, but unfortunately I never had a chance to fly them.

john h
mkIII
titus, alabama


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Thom Riddle



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Lucien,

The distributor wear issue is not a big deal. The rotor and the distributor cap in the automotive distributor needs to be changed out every so often (few hundred hours) and cost is low at NAPA or other auto parts store. Mine has 243 hours on it and the original rotors and caps are in great shape.

The fretting at the flywheel connection was in early engines only and the SB on that requires the now standard dowel pins to be installed AT OVERHAUL if no problems are encountered before that. My engine is subject to this SB but I've not had any problems in that area. I believe the 100 hour inspection list includes re-torquing these attach bolts and suspect that owners have ignored this bit and that is the reason for the "problem". Installing dowels helps make it more murphy-proof.

The high oil consumption is mostly an operating issue due to overfilling the sump.... very much like filling a Lycoming O-320 to eight quarts will end up with about six quarts in short order because the excess will be vented out. Nobody who has flown an O-320 for awhile (and pays for his own oil) ever fills the sump past 6 quarts. Filling the Jabiru too high will result in excess oil loss, not consumption. Some don't understand the difference. I keep my oil level where it is supposed to be. I drain a small dribble of ugly stuff from the air/oil separator after each flight or two. In the first 50 hours I flew the Jab (to oil change) I added no more than 1 quart to keep it at proper level... slightly more than the 912 but an insignificant amount by air-cooled engine standards. Recommended oil is semi-synthetic Aeroshell 15W-50 which is about $5.50/quart and it takes 2 1/2 quarts to fill the sump to proper level.

While we are at it, there have been reports of hard starting in cold weather. The Jab has a single Bing 94 carb, similar(but not identical) to the Bing 64 on the 912. Like the Rotax Bing 64, to start in the cold, the enricher must be full on and the throttle at idle. Again, ignorance is at the root of this so-called "problem", both for hard starting 912 engines and hard starting Jab engines in cold weather.

John H said something about someone with a Jab had hard starting on a very damp morning and had to dry out the distributor caps (if I remember correctly). I've never had that problem when my Jab sits out overnight in the rain, as long as I cover the engine (which I do). The morning after relative humidity has been as high as 95% and it started right up.

Great engine and getting better as continuous design process goes forward.... but still wish it had a geared prop to reduce the prop noise.


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lucien



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote:

Lucien,

In my experience with two cycle engines, there seems to be plenty of "grunt
work" left. For all the good things that Rotax and others have done to adapt
two cycle engines for aircraft, they have not provided the pilot with a means
for effective engine management. I believe the inability, during flight, to
adjust air fuel mixture is the largest single cause of premature two cycle
engine failure.

Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN


I disagree. Far and away, no in-flight adjustable mixture is more towards the bottom of the list for engine-out causes rather than the top.

Generally, when the jetting chart is followed for your altitude and temp, mixture problems are rare, at least those that go to the point of stopping the prop. True, you do have to compensate for having fixed jetting in your operating practices (remember you're going to go rich at higher altitudes, no high-speed descents with the throttle partially open, etc) but fixed jetting by itself I havn't observed to be a major problem since good 2-stroke practice is easy to follow.

The major contributors to engine-outs with the 2-strokes include (in my experience with both my 2-strokes and those of other guys I know who've flown them a lot):
- overly hard running (you can't run the jeepers out of a 2-stroke like we can and should our 912's)
- underpowering (leads to the above)
- fuel system maintenance/installation errors
- ignition system installation errors (caused my one/only engine-out with a 2-stroke)
- under or overpropping
- incorrect installation
- other incorrect operating practices for 2-strokes like shock-heating (long descents followed by immediate full power) and long descents with partially open throttle, etc.

There was an altitude compensating setup available for the 2-stroke Bings for a while, but it eventually was discontinued for reasons unknown (probably cost, it was pretty expensive).

I've heard of some in-flight mixture controls being developed as well, but fro the little study I did of them there wasn't much in the way of reliable information about how to actually operate them. Besides, the fixed jetting maintains the correct CHT/EGT's virtually all the time anyway, so it doesn't sound to me like a very effective bang/buck option.

My experience with the Rotax 2-strokes has always been bolt-on-and-go-fly. They give very little trouble as long as the directions are followed and the maint. is done correctly.

Like I said, the only time the fan stopped turning on a 2-stroke for me was my 447 on my trike. Turned out to be an installation error on my part (mag lead was bundled in with the ground lead and it shorted in flight, shutting the engine off).

LS


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Thom Riddle



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

I suspect John W had a very early engine and they were indeed anemic, even in faster airframes like the Zenith 601. I spoke to a guy in Mexico, MO at the Zenith open-house in 2001 who had a very early Jab 2200 and he was very unhappy with that engine performance.

Mine is serial #1574 which is one of the later solid lifter models with many improvements over the very early models. I get 1,100 fpm climb on a standard day and about 900 on a very hot day, at Vy which is about 60-65mph. AND my prop (fixed pitch wood) is something of a cruise prop since it only turns about 3170 rpm at full throttle straight and level flight. Max continuous rpm is 3,300.

As I've said before, the continue to improve the product as does Rotax and anyone else in the engine business who wants to stay in that business.


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lucien



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
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Location: santa fe, NM

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Thom Riddle wrote:
Lucien,

The distributor wear issue is not a big deal. The rotor and the distributor cap in the automotive distributor needs to be changed out every so often (few hundred hours) and cost is low at NAPA or other auto parts store. Mine has 243 hours on it and the original rotors and caps are in great shape.

The fretting at the flywheel connection was in early engines only and the SB on that requires the now standard dowel pins to be installed AT OVERHAUL if no problems are encountered before that. My engine is subject to this SB but I've not had any problems in that area. I believe the 100 hour inspection list includes re-torquing these attach bolts and suspect that owners have ignored this bit and that is the reason for the "problem". Installing dowels helps make it more murphy-proof.

The high oil consumption is mostly an operating issue due to overfilling the sump.... very much like filling a Lycoming O-320 to eight quarts will end up with about six quarts in short order because the excess will be vented out. Nobody who has flown an O-320 for awhile (and pays for his own oil) ever fills the sump past 6 quarts. Filling the Jabiru too high will result in excess oil loss, not consumption. Some don't understand the difference. I keep my oil level where it is supposed to be. I drain a small dribble of ugly stuff from the air/oil separator after each flight or two. In the first 50 hours I flew the Jab (to oil change) I added no more than 1 quart to keep it at proper level... slightly more than the 912 but an insignificant amount by air-cooled engine standards. Recommended oil is semi-synthetic Aeroshell 15W-50 which is about $5.50/quart and it takes 2 1/2 quarts to fill the sump to proper level.

While we are at it, there have been reports of hard starting in cold weather. The Jab has a single Bing 94 carb, similar(but not identical) to the Bing 64 on the 912. Like the Rotax Bing 64, to start in the cold, the enricher must be full on and the throttle at idle. Again, ignorance is at the root of this so-called "problem", both for hard starting 912 engines and hard starting Jab engines in cold weather.

John H said something about someone with a Jab had hard starting on a very damp morning and had to dry out the distributor caps (if I remember correctly). I've never had that problem when my Jab sits out overnight in the rain, as long as I cover the engine (which I do). The morning after relative humidity has been as high as 95% and it started right up.

Great engine and getting better as continuous design process goes forward.... but still wish it had a geared prop to reduce the prop noise.


Ok, thanks Thom. The dowel pin mod I've heard of, but hadn't heard any reports about whether it actually fixed the fretting problem. I also wasn't aware of the maint. schedule on the distributor (sounds about like what you always had to do on our old cars so indeed doesn't sound like a big deal as long as you don't tell the parts dudes at Napa they're going in an a/c engine Wink).
I've looked over some of the SB's issued by Jabiru, which is where I found out some of these things. but again not being an owner, I'm in the dark on lots of it.

In my case depending on the plane I eventually decide to build I have the 7000' MSL altitude issue to deal with too. That'd be the only problem I'd have with a 2200, the motor I'd most like to go with. The 3300 is too close to the cost of the 912 to not use the 912 for say a Mark III where it'd be more appropriate (and I could reuse my 68" Warp Drive which I'm keeping for just such an eventuality Wink).

If I do another FSII it'll get a 503 with my C box and clutch, and a firefly would go with a 447 (assuming they still make it if I pull that particular trigger).

Anyway, thanks for the info very much appreciated,

LS


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Thom R/Gang:

Quote:
I added no more than 1 quart to keep it at proper level... slightly more
than the 912

Uh oh! Got to defend my engine now. Wink This may come as a surprise, but
the Jab uses a lot more oil than my three 912 engines, if it used a quart
between changes. I have never had to top off any of my 912 engines. John
W, who had about 1400 hours on 912 engines never added oil to his.

On my first flight to Alaska, 1994, with my new 912 (back then they were
referred to as 912UL) I carried a spare quart of oil. Hauled it all the way
to North Pole, Alaska. Had flown 100 hours and time to change oil in the
912. Went down to the local NAPA, bought a Fram 3614 and two quarts of
Mobil I. Drained out the old oil and poured in three quarts of Mobil I,
which included my spare quart. Never carried spare oil after than and have
never needed to.

Quote:
While we are at it, there have been reports of hard starting in cold
weather. The Jab has a single Bing 94 carb, similar(but not identical) to
the Bing 64 on the 912. Like the Rotax Bing 64, to start in the cold, the
enricher must be full on and the throttle at idle. Again, ignorance is at
the root of this so-called "problem", both for hard starting 912 engines
and hard starting Jab engines in cold weather.

I certainly agree with the above. I never had a problem starting a Rotax or
Cuyuna two stroke during cold weather, nor a 912, adherring to the Rotax
prescribed start procedure. Always felt it was unnecessary to install
primers for that reason.

I did have a problem starting my first 912 in 1994, when it was a brand new
engine, but it was not a fuel related problem. I did not know it at the
time, but the factory spark plug gap was too wide. I was fit to be tied. A
brand new four stroke, my first, and it started having "hard start" problems
at Lakeland with only a few hours on the engine. Closed the gap down from
.028 to .020 and never had another problem. With my 912ULS engines, I set
them initially, a tight .025 and never have experienced a hard start
problem.

Quote:
John H said something about someone with a Jab had hard starting on a very
damp morning and had to dry out the distributor caps (if I remember
correctly).

2003, on our flight to the Outer Banks, John Williamson had condensation in
the distributor caps. Would not fire a lick until he removed and dried out
the cap. Was one of those soppy wet foggy mornings along the coast in NC.
I have had the same problem with inboard boat engines and tractor engines.
Usually a dry rag and a quick wipe inside the cap fixes the problem.

Quote:
Great engine and getting better as continuous design process goes
forward.... but still wish it had a geared prop to reduce the prop noise.

If it was my engine and airplane, I would be more interested in increasing
performance than I would reducing prop noise. The only way to do that is
drive the prop through a gear reduction. Direct drive engines lack
performance on Kolbs. That is a proven fact....

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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John Hauck



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

> We've corresponded about this already, but when I do eventually decide to
build (a Kolb is one of the planes on the list) the Jab is one of the
engines I'm considering (probably the 2200).
Quote:

LS


Lucien/Gang:

It is an established fact, direct drive engines grossly degrade performance
on Kolb aircraft, no matter what make engine it is.

However, armed with that knowledge, people still install direct drive
engines on Kolbs.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


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herbgh(at)nctc.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

Hi All,

For what it's worth ,I was very interested in the jab 2200 when I
built my firestar 2. I used the HKS instead mainly because I couldn't
make contact with the folks at Jabiru U.S.A in Tenn.
I tried several times , and in my experience they simply would not
answer the contact info from their web site, after trying several
times I gave up on them. I was afraid that with
what I believed was their apparent low level of interest in selling a
jab engine. Their interest would be even lower after the sale if I
needed parts or support. I have since read on
the Zenith list or in the Zenith chat room , I don't remember which
That this is typical of the way they operate, but if you can make
telephone contact with them things seem to smooth out.
I'm happy with the HKS but the 20 extra ponies would be nice
especially if I get to do some flying in the western mountains this
year as I hope to . Rotax would always be my first choice
if I had unlimited $$$.

Frank Goodnight
Firestar 2
HKS 125 hrs ---not flying much tooooo cold.
Brownsville , TX

On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:50 AM, lucien wrote:

Quote:


Thom,

Speaking of the Jab again, a couple other problems I've heard about
that I still keep hearing about are high oil consumption in certain
(seemingly random?) cases and problems with fretting where the
flywheel attaches to the crankshaft. I think the latter is with the
2200 but can't remember offhand.

Those are two of the scary things I keep hearing about on the Jab
lists that I havn't heard whether they're resolved or not.

Another is problems with the distributor where there's wearing on
the shaft or something along those lines.

Any ideas or info about those by chance? Obviously, since I'm not an
owner I only have the reports I read on lists and so on to go on and
don't have access to what Jabiru themselves actually have said about
it (other than perhaps service bulletins).

We've corresponded about this already, but when I do eventually
decide to build (a Kolb is one of the planes on the list) the Jab is
one of the engines I'm considering (probably the 2200).

LS

--------
LS
Titan II SS


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lucien



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Alternitive Kolb Engines Reply with quote

John Hauck wrote:

Jack H/Gang:

If you and I really knew what the numbers were, I bet there would be far
more engine outs and engine failures caused because the pilot had in flight
manual mixture control. Not only two strokes, but certified aircraft
engines as well. You don't hear about it normally, but a lot of pistons and
valves are burned in Lycomings and Continentals because of overagressive
leaning.


Took the words exactly right out of my mouth....

A long time ago we had a guy on here insisting that tweaking the mixture to the nth degree as they do on racing bikes was a major omission in the operating practices of 2-strokes on airplanes. Don't remember exactly how the conversation went, but I've since often wondered how he ever came out with that particular idea on his aircraft 2-stroke. Would have been interesting data to have obtained.

One thing about a 2-stroke - they're primarily fuel cooled especially at high power settings. So they _have_ to run rich at those power levels when cranking a prop just to maintain operating temperature. The main compromise being fuel consumption and power output, but the tradeoff is necessary to keep the fan turning.

Like I said before, the Rotax jetting chart _alone_ is worth the cost of the engine if you otherwise don't know how to jet the engine. Also, when you DO know how to jet a Rotax 2-stroke, you usually end up at what the jetting chart already recommends for your alt. and temp. And usually you learned that information by consulting the chart in the first place.

Strange but true.

LS


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