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dbvz(at)hotmail.com
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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 Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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Dwight,
That's quite a laundry list...sounds like you might be getting a bit heavy...t'would appear that you'd be doing some serious cloud-street soaring to meet your range target...though, as you may know, a short-wing Europa has encircled the globe...
Every now and then there's a seller who, for liability reasons, wants to sell his plane w/o an engine...then you could re-engine to suit and spend some spare time building a set of long wings...consider your appetite for pioneering...you'll want to have a hearty one...then again, if you want to be a builder, start w/ an airframe kit...only one or two Europas w/ diesels as far as I know.
I know of no one who is actively pursuing a BRS install...
Good luck,
Fred
On Feb 6, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Dwight Van Zanen wrote:
| Quote: | I am new to this system of communication. If you can direct me to somewhere to get this information, please let me know.
I have been interested in a Europa for some time and would like your advice on the feasability of a diesel tri-gear, long wing; with aux fuel tank, IFR GPS coupled to autopilot with altitude hold, BRS and oxygen systems. I have looked into the WAM 120 from Weisch Airmotive, but open to alternatives. I am in the USA where an Experimental glider can be flown without a medical, night and IFR if properly equipped. Here are some reasons for my question:
1. Long range: Use a turbo-diesel at 3gph, aux tank, perhaps 2000NM in economy cruise?
3. GPS direct:
4. Low fuel cost: See #1
5. More safety in a SEL: great power-off glide, diesel fuel, add a BRS
6. Easier to make modifications: EXP, pretty simple systems
7. Cheaper for maintenance: Do it yourself mostly
8. Steady IFR platform: wingspan of 47.25 feet
9. Higher altitudes: turbo-diesel, add oxygen system
10. Remove the wings, take it home in a trailer. No hangar rental.
11. Higher speeds: 150kts TAS (at) 10k, turbo for altitude.
12. No medical required for a registered glider in the USA, even for night and IFR if equipped.
And on the negatives:
13. Reduced to 2 seats. Solo for long range flights. Possible to increase useful load with more power?
14. Initial cost to buy/build and set it up the way I want it.
15. Necessity of getting the glider rating and self-launch endorsement.
16. No toilet. Not needed with my current plane, but Porta-John works.
17. ? I know some people consider EXP a negative, but see 1-12...
Most of my flying has been solo or with one passenger anyway, retired with grown kids mostly on the other coast. The MG idea would not work for everyone, but it seems like it would work for me better than my current plane does. And the FAA rules allow night and IFR in a properly equiped MG without a medical. May be valuable as I get older. Thanks for any advice or comments on feasability. And if anyone is doing something similar, I would love to hear from you.
Dwight B. Van Zanen
22426 262 Ave. SE
Maple Valley, WA 98038
(425) 432-2213
dbvz(at)hotmail.com (dbvz(at)hotmail.com)
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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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I would suggest you have a look at the MGL EFIS panels, which will give you the IFR, autopilot gear you need, at a great price compared to most of the
others. The Smart 1.5l turbo diesel comes in at 95hp, which is about the same as the rotax engines, fuel consumption runs to about 5 litres an hours
good luck, sounds like a good project.
craig
[quote] --
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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Realistically, I think you are asking too much from available
hardware. A rotax tri-gear Europa has a range of about 300 nm with
the factory tank at reasonable cruise. There is no standard
long range tank for trigears or taildraggers, only available for
monowheels. That extended tank only added about 50% to the
range.
Expecting 150kts on 3gph also seems a bit optimistic too. I get
about 135 kts at 5000' at 5.5 gph with 912S. In the 912S fuel
consumption increases with altitude.
If you want a parachute for the fuselage, you will need to design that
yourself since it has not been done before. <That>
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Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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It is a good project idea - I am building my Europa MG tri-gear with full IFR with the same ideas . I have both sets of wings but will fly first with the short ones. I did think about a bigger engine but settled on the 912S. Unlike hot rods - more power is not necessarily good - there are very real problems of weight and balance as well as structural strength with a bigger engine - as well as handling. And more power won't necessarily translate into more speed or performance. There is also a safety issue - besides weight and balance. The airfoil, wing area and stabilators are designed for certain speeds and weight - fly at over the weight limit or speed limit and very bad things can happen.
The plane as designed is very nice, and any mods greatly increase the build time - as I have learned the hard way.
As for only two seats - I can only think of a few trips in 38 years of flying where I had more than 2 people in a plane.
I looked at attaching a BRS (I have one in my Kitfox Lite) but it would require a complete re-engineering of the airplane. And in the Europa (as in the SR-22) use of the chute destroys the plane. Better to build and fly so you don't need it - and it only helps in very limited situations (like an in-flight structural failure at altitude - it won't help in situations where most accidents happen - take-offs and landings - since the chute can't deploy fast enough.)
Realize that with the glider wings the carrying weight is reduced as the wings weigh, I think, 100 pounds more than the short wings.
Be sure you register the plane as a motor glider even if you build the short wings first as it is very difficult to change the classification after registering as a SEL.
There is a guy in Utah or Nevada that flies up to 22,000 ft. in his "Mini-U2" with oxygen. I think he has the 914 Turbo. I think his name is Dave Anderson(?). He had a web site that was pretty good. It may still be on the club site.
I would suggest the high top and extra width mod (I am 6 ft tall and have wide shoulders) - this also gives you a higher windshield that greatly increases the viewing area. And it appears to not hurt performance.
Gary Leinberger
A237
________________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin [craigb(at)onthenet.com.au]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 6:59 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG?
I would suggest you have a look at the MGL EFIS panels, which will give you the IFR, autopilot gear you need, at a great price compared to most of the
others. The Smart 1.5l turbo diesel comes in at 95hp, which is about the same as the rotax engines, fuel consumption runs to about 5 litres an hours
good luck, sounds like a good project.
craig
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Gary Leinberger wrote:
| Quote: | any mods greatly increase the build time - as I have learned the
hard way.
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Hey Gary...tis a slippery slope is it not?
..bet my mod list is longer than yours!
Hang in there...you get enough snow this weekend?
Fred
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kevann(at)gotsky.com
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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| Quote: | I think,based on my mono with 914/Airmaster prop combo with aux alternator
and intercooler up front (around 175lbs.) and battery in back, that the
W&B would not work out if your diesel engine and prop are more than that.
Just too much weight forward on this airframe..
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Kevin
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dbvz(at)hotmail.com
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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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If you are talking a trade off of baggage for fuel, and you run the 1470 lb MTOW that some of the non UK builders are running
then you could add another 60kg (possibly more depending on empty weight) of fuel in the baggage bay, just have to watch the
CofG is ok, which would about double your fuel load, which based on your 3 gph would give you about 12hrs endurance, question is
would you want to go that long without being able to stretch the legs.
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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Dwight,
With respect to the tri-gear MG portion of your quest, you might
introduce yourself to Rob Neils who is based near Spokane; Rob flies
one, I believe w/ a 914. His email is:
RobNeils(at)Q.com
Fred
PS: I'm up on Orcas Island
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terrys(at)cisco.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:55 am Post subject: Diesel Europa tri-gear MG? |
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Hi Gary, Dwight,
My partner, Dave DeFord, and I have a monowheel XS with the 912S and
Airmaster prop. We built it first with short wings, with our first
flight in 2001. We have since built the long wings, and have been
flying with them about two years now. Even with the relatively light
912S, we are a little nose heavy with the long wings on. We were warned
by Dave Anderson that we might need some ballast in the tail when we
switched to the long wings, and he was right. Installing a diesel
weighing considerably more would create serious weight and balance
problems.
As far as registration, our plane was registered as a homebuilt
aircraft, not necessarily SEL. When we talked to our FAA examiner about
re-registering the plane as a motorglider, he said we only needed to
send him a letter describing the change to the plane, and he would sign
it off and send it back to us, requiring a nominal fly off of a few
hours. If it is flown as an SEL and the pilot is legal to fly SEL, then
that is what it is. If is equipped consistent with a motorglider, and
the pilot has the proper rating, then it is a motorglider.
Theoretically, if we put a rotor mast on it, and get the proper rating,
it could also be an autogiro (after sending our FAA examiner a
description of the change and getting a sign off from him).
Regards,
Terry Seaver
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