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Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up
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z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Here is the email I sent AOPA. I encourage everyone to express their concerns 

to them, whether they specifically agree with me or not.



================================================



I was both surprised and disappointed when I read the article on the Zenith 

601XL. Filled with misinformation, the story makes a bad situation worse.

First, Zenith does not offer an E-LSA version of the 601XL. It offers a factory-

built LSA version, or a kit for an experimental, amateur-built version (EAB). 

An EAB is not an E-LSA; there are significant differences. 



Second, although the 601XL has had more than its share of accidents, I am not 

aware of any knowledgeable witnesses to any of them. The witnesses have been 

well-meaning people of the same caliber that think an engine stall and a wing 

stall are the same thing. That has been one of the problems: aircraft which 

fail in flight, yet without a single common thread that defines the exact 

problem, and no reliable witnesses.



Your article implies that flutter is at fault. That should be discernible with 

ground vibration testing (GVT). Yet when Zenith had GVT done by an independent 

authority, a properly rigged aircraft showed no resonance. Flutter seems 

pretty unlikely. 



A second GVT was conducted by the LAA in England. Examination of the 

methodology of that test raises significant questions about the validity of the 

test. However, the only resonance it indicated was the aircraft swaying from 

side to side on its gear. Despite the fact that it did not indicate flutter as 

the problem, it was used as the justification to require UK 601XLs to install 

aileron balances.



Zenith's demonstrator aircraft has well over 1,000 hours on it, but has shown 

no problems. Numerous privately built aircraft have also amassed significant 

hours without difficulty. The individual in the hangar next to me, who has a 

Czech factory built version, put over 300 hours on the aircraft last year 

without problems. 



Since aircraft built by individuals, Zenith's facility in Georgia, and one 

aircraft built under license in eastern Europe have all experienced breakups, 

it may be the problem is how the aircraft is flown. A search on YouTube has 

shown 601XLs performing acrobatic maneuvers, suggesting some may have 

overstressed their aircraft.



Despite the lack of a definite cause, Zenith has, in good faith, released a 

modification kit that essentially fixes everything that might be wrong. Whether 

or not this targets whatever the actual problem may be is open to question, 

because that remains unknown.



I normally depend on AOPA to at least get the facts straight. Please, do a 

better investigation, get the facts, and THEN publish a revision to the 

article. AOPA is supposed to be promoting general aviation, not publishing 

negative articles that are short on facts.

-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                                       BS,MS Physics

                                            A&P/IA

                      General Radio Telephone Certificate

                               Instrument Rated Pilot

                     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                                      601XL Builder

========================================

robert watson

Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Scotland

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Mr Belcher you ask everyone to write to AOPA expressing their concerns as to their article regarding the Zenith 601XL. particuarly in relation to the  " misinformation " 

Before anyone does this, may I suggest that you check and research your own article as it is  full of misinformation!. 



Over and above your inaccurate article I am attonished that you seem to imply that this aircraft is as safe as any other type.

 

You accept that it has had its fair share of accidents -but  many aircraft have accidents - but it is almost unheard of in modern times for an  aircraft to lose its wings.



Of coarse you may say that these accidents are due to poor Pilot handling does that mean that only pilots of inferior ability are attracted to 601xl,s? -and the many other experimental types available attract the sensible pilots,  I do not see any of them loseing their wings!!. 



I am a owner/builder /Pilot of a 601xl currently self grounded till Mod complete.

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

I suspect our perspectives differ too greatly for an exchange of ideas to have 

much of a positive result. As you appear to feel strongly about your position, 

in the spirit of freedom of speech, I respectfully suggest you communicate it 

to the AOPA.



On Friday 29 January 2010 17:24:05 you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

  <robert.warson12(at)tiscali.co.uk>

 

 Mr Belcher you ask everyone to write to AOPA expressing their concerns as

  to their article regarding the Zenith 601XL. particuarly in relation to

  the  " misinformation " Before anyone does this, may I suggest that you

  check and research your own article as it is  full of misinformation!.

 

 Over and above your inaccurate article I am attonished that you seem to

  imply that this aircraft is as safe as any other type.

 

 You accept that it has had its fair share of accidents -but  many aircraft

  have accidents - but it is almost unheard of in modern times for an 

  aircraft to lose its wings.

 

 Of coarse you may say that these accidents are due to poor Pilot handling

  does that mean that only pilots of inferior ability are attracted to

  601xl,s? -and the many other experimental types available attract the

  sensible pilots,  I do not see any of them loseing their wings!!.

 

 I am a owner/builder /Pilot of a 601xl currently self grounded till Mod

  complete.


	




-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                                       BS,MS Physics

                                            A&P/IA

                      General Radio Telephone Certificate

                               Instrument Rated Pilot

                     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                                      601XL Builder

========================================

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

.and this, folks, is how one stops a flame-throwing war.

A rare skill indeed.



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans

do not archive



On 30 January 2010 10:34, Jim Belcher <z601c(at)anemicaardvark.com (z601c(at)anemicaardvark.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Jim Belcher <z601c(at)anemicaardvark.com (z601c(at)anemicaardvark.com)>

  

 I suspect our perspectives differ too greatly for an exchange of ideas to have

 much of a positive result. As you appear to feel strongly about your position,

 in the spirit of freedom of speech, I respectfully suggest you communicate it

 to the AOPA.

[b]

goodings(at)yorku.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Personally, I thought that Mr. Belcher's letter was well-written, helpful, 

low-key, and exhibited good common sense.



John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto.

vayuwings

Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 16
Location: arizona

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Well said, accurate and reasonable, Jim. I'll send one to AOPA also. Their article to me was simply not researched well and sources not checked. 



Dave Miller

601X2   O-200

waiting on the upgrade pkg

z601c(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

On Thursday 04 February 2010 15:30:56 you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Well said, accurate and reasonable, Jim. I'll send one to AOPA also. Their

  article to me was simply not researched well and sources not checked.

 

 Dave Miller

 601X2   O-200

 waiting on the upgrade pkg


	




Thanks, Dave! I believe it's important for those who feel that AOPA was 

somewhat less than objective in their reporting to say so - even if they don't 

happen to agree with my views.

-- 

========================================

                                       Jim B. Belcher

                                       BS,MS Physics

                                            A&P/IA

                      General Radio Telephone Certificate

                               Instrument Rated Pilot

                     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

                                      601XL Builder

========================================

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Hi Sabrina,



I am optimistic the current changes for the Zodiac XL will work just fine.

We should see elimination of the unexplained structure failures or at least

a huge reduction in the rate of failures.



I should be entering Phase I flight testing on my Zodiac this Spring.  I

expect to spend the Summer completing the test program.  After that I will

review the state of affairs regarding in-flight failures and decide whether

or not to go into phase II.



If, indeed, the accidents continue through this year I will turn my XL into

a flower planter for my front yard and move all the expensive parts to my

current project - a scratch built Wittman Buttercup.



Paul

Camas, WA

Awaiting delivery of upgrade kit.



=========================



There had to be a reason for those 10mm doublers... maybe if others ask, the

ASF/Piper will help us just in case the Zenith upgrade does not work out as

planned...

Juan Vega Jr

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:03 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

There is a great article on the taining with regard to the MU -2 accidents years back.  every one looked at the plane, yet when training went up,  accidents went down.  I believe this will be a perfect example of the 601's situation,  light sport pilots and pilots transitioning to a lighter wing load,  need to be trained to fly a very light wing loaded aircraft.   They are currently focusing their ire on an aircraft that is now "overbuilt".  If accidents continue to some extent,  maybe they will finally focus on the needed items,  pilot awareness, and good building practices.  Only then will this very well designed, overbuilt aircraft find some peace.



Juan

--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 11:01:01AM -0500, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    There is a great article on the taining with regard to the MU -2

  accidents years back.  every one looked at the plane, yet when training

  went up, accidents went down.  I believe this will be a perfect example

  of the 601's situation, light sport pilots and pilots transitioning to a

  lighter wing load, need to be trained to fly a very light wing loaded

  aircraft.  They are currently focusing their ire on an aircraft that is

  now "overbuilt".  If accidents continue to some extent, maybe they will

  finally focus on the needed items, pilot awareness, and good building

  practices.  Only then will this very well designed, overbuilt aircraft

  find some peace.


	


If you keep wading in denial, the crodociles will get you.



By now, the only people denying ther'es a problem are pilots like you who

can't understand that it is indeed possible for an aircraft to have design

flaws.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

sabrina

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 170

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Do Not Archive

Last edited by sabrina on Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

dwilde(at)clearwire.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:51 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    

   Trained, even over trained on this issue, might be a good thing.





   

I just read an article in a recent EAA newsletter that may pertain to 
	


this issue.  The study found that the less you know about something, the 

more you think you know.  The article was relating to UL pilots who 

would take just enough training to learn how to land and then stop 

taking lessons because they felt they knew enough to fly on their own.  

As a former UL pilot I saw this attitude more than once and also saw the 

tragic results. 



Knowledge and training are good things and not to be avoided.



Dan Wilde

Juan Vega Jr

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

SAbrina and all,

Don't missenterpret what I say,  what I said was people need to get used to a lite wing load plane,  NOT "Juan's concern with the pitch sensitivity", , that is dispositive of the issue.  Any aircraft that has a cruise of 138 mph and a manauvering speed of 103 mph needs to be treated and flown with a sense of complete mental awareness.  And trainig needs to be constant.  Case and point,  when I brought up the manuavering speed a year ago,  peoples' response was " manuavering speed? whats that?"   The plane is safe,  if flown properly within specs, and built correctly, that is what I said, and over time  when the mods are done,  this statement will be less ignored and not as debated.

before you email me some  opinion,  read the MU-2 articles and the articles on training equals safe pilot.

Juan





--

Juan Vega Jr

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Tron Boy, show me on the tests conducted where the flaw is on the aircraft.  



Juan

--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 02:56:16PM -0500, Juan Vega wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Tron Boy, show me on the tests conducted where the flaw is on the aircraft.  


	


The FAA cited structural strength deficiencies when it issued its grounding

order.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

On Sat, Feb 06, 2010 at 10:04:24AM -0800, Sabrina wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think Juan is worried, as am I, that the upgrade did not address the

 airframe's unique sensitivity during max gross weight, max aft CG

 loadings.


	


Juan's been denying there's a problem with the airframe from the very

beginning. He hasn't changed his tune at all.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am lucky enough to have been trained by a skilled 601XL pilot, someone

 who knows the airplane like the back of their hand, someone who has the

 ability to impart that knowledge onto their student in an effective

 way--many other pilots are not so lucky.


	


Thank you, Sabrina. I do appreciate that.



I certainly won't disagree that training on the Zodiac's peculiarities is a

good thing. Any pilot transitioning to a new type should get a complete,

thorough checkout from an instructor familiar with the type. That's just

good safe flying, be it a Zodiac, another LSA, or another airplane entirely.



I just don't think that the problems are completely addressed by calling

them lack of training. If it were, then either Zodiac pilots are getting

less training than pilots of other LSAs, or else the training is less

effective - and both are less likely than there being a problem with the

aircraft design itself.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

"Tron Boy"  now that's funny...



Jay, there are a number of people who don't think there is anything wrong 

with the plane, if it's flown properly,  including Chris Heintz.



Randy

---

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: Recommended Letter-writing campaign, follow-up

Hi Randy,



What you say is true.  It is also true that a number of people believe there is a design flaw.  That includes minor players like Jay and myself, the NTSB, and the FAA.  Alas, this is not a question where the majority rules.



I think this kind of problem is very difficult to understand.  It is a latent flaw that doesn't show up except under very unusual circumstances.  The airframe passes static and ground vibration tests, but still the wings come off in flight.  While some of the failures are easy to explain away (like the one where the newly minted Sport Pilot decided to take off in hard IMC), I find it impossible to believe there is no weakness that causes this to be the only LSA - indeed the only light plane of any type - where the structure fails so often.



It is even worse because nobody can point their finger at the exact flaw.  There have been several full NTSB investigations and yet no smoking gun was found.



The only consistency in the failures is they all seem to fail at the same general place - the place where the wings and fuselage come together.



The upgrade beefs up this area of the design along with doing the things the NTSB asked for a year ago.  I am truly optimistic, but not convinced, that once the planes are upgraded the failures will go away.  If so I will enjoy my Zodiac as much as possible.  If not, I will scrap it.  My life and especially the lives of my passengers deserve more than a plane with a fatal design flaw.



Paul

XL awaiting upgrade kit.

--

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