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Good news, bad news

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hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Good news, bad news

I took today off as vacation and accomplished quite a bit of Europa work.  The plane got its first ride on the  dual axel flatbed trailer I fabbed up for it. It went to Falcon Field and  back and came out unscathed. (good news)   The trailer probably weighs almost 2 times that of  the plane and it sits higher than a lot of the traffic.  So the plane is protected pretty well.  The prop has gotten dynamically balanced and there was a noticeable change even on ground runups. (good news).  Initial taxi tests were undertaken and the plane tracks very well.  I didn't have to do a bunch of back and forth  tap dancing on the rudders to keep it straight on the line as had been my experience in a  Cessna 140 and 2 other Europas I had taxied.  However being more at ease in my own plane may have led to more measured footwork may account for the  better tracking. (good news).  On the other hand my low speed taxi was more of a medium speed taxi.  With the throttle pulled back to its high i

 dle (1500-1600) the taxi rate seemed to be approaching a very fast run by a healthy teenager.  Brakes were being dragged almost the whole time. (bad news).  I haven't set the prop pitch stops yet on the Airmaster and I hope that is the issue.  A very cursory quick check showed about 30 degrees on the backside of the prop and an inability to get up to 5000 rpm on one quick full power run. What are those with Airmasters running for fine pitch?



The weight and balance was completed and  the aircraft as it sits now primered for fly off  but now  final paint has its Cg about  7/10 of an inch behind the forward limit. (good news).  I  haven't permanately mounted the battery yet.  Right now the battery and its box of sorts in sitting centered  under the right access panel of the baggage bay shelf.  Where are other's CG's at with an empty weight?  I need to do the calculations for all the  people, baggage, fuel, aux tank combinations to see if I need to do some fine tuning with the location. Now for the (bad news) the empty weight is just about 900 lbs. Which is about 50 lbs more than I was hoping  for,  91 % of the weight is on the mono and 9 % on the tailwheel.   With some leeway available in the US for certing the gross wt  I would like to call it 1420 to get a good solid 500# payload.  I can fill it up with gas and still tote a 175#  woman around.  Just think of what I could carry with a 125# woman aboard . . .!  ! ? 

   I'm 205 sopping wet and I should be 195 so adjusting me should be a  lot easier than drilling holes  in everything to get more payload.  How many out there have their gross weights certificated for greater than 1370?

Steve Haga

A143

Mesa AZ

Getting closer!

Steve Hagar

hagargs(at)earthlink.net

n9zes(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: Good news, bad news

Steve Hagar wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 I didn't have to do a bunch of back and forth  tap dancing on the rudders to keep it straight on the line as had been my experience in a  Cessna 140 and 2 other Europas I had taxied.  However being more at ease in my own plane may have led to more measured footwork may account for the  better tracking. (good news).  On the other hand my low speed taxi was more of a medium speed taxi.  With the throttle pulled back to its high i

 dle (1500-1600) the taxi rate seemed to be approaching a very fast run by a healthy teenager.  Brakes were being dragged almost the whole time. (bad news).  I haven't set the prop pitch stops yet on the Airmaster and I hope that is the issue.  



  




	


--->  I can't speak to the prop pitch issue, but I did just resolve an 

idle speed issue with our 140.  In the process of getting the idle 

mixture sorted (too rich), I ended up with an idle speed of about 800 

rpm or even a little more.  It would taxi pretty good at 'idle', and 

landing was an absolute b!tch!!!!  I made some REALLY ugly landings 

trying to get it on the ground.



Once we got the idle adjusted to the proper 575 - 600 rpm, it lands like 

an absolute pussy cat. 



With the high idle, it would float or even climb during the flare, 

skitter all around the runway, and even drag the tailwheel for a while 

before finally giving up and getting on the ground when trying to do a 

3-point landing.



I'm just wondering how much effect idle speed combined with prop pitch 

on the Europa might effect the landing ease between different Europas?



Chris

topglock(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: Good news, bad news

Steve, my tri-gear is certed at 1450 and flys well at that weight.  

Empty weight is 925 and CG is almost dead center at 60".  With the wife 

and I and a full load of fuel, we can carry baggage to gross without 

getting out of  CG.



I don't remember what the Airmaster is running for fine pitch, and the 

book is not handy, but I'm thinking somewhere between 13 and 17 degrees...



Jeff - Baby Blue

166 hours



Steve Hagar wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I took today off as vacation and accomplished quite a bit of Europa work.  The plane got its first ride on the  dual axel flatbed trailer I fabbed up for it. It went to Falcon Field and  back and came out unscathed. (good news)   The trailer probably weighs almost 2 times that of  the plane and it sits higher than a lot of the traffic.  So the plane is protected pretty well.  The prop has gotten dynamically balanced and there was a noticeable change even on ground runups. (good news).  Initial taxi tests were undertaken and the plane tracks very well.  I didn't have to do a bunch of back and forth  tap dancing on the rudders to keep it straight on the line as had been my experience in a  Cessna 140 and 2 other Europas I had taxied.  However being more at ease in my own plane may have led to more measured footwork may account for the  better tracking. (good news).  On the other hand my low speed taxi was more of a medium speed taxi.  With the throttle pulled back to its high i

 dle (1500-1600) the taxi rate seemed to be approaching a very fast run by a healthy teenager.  Brakes were being dragged almost the whole time. (bad news).  I haven't set the prop pitch stops yet on the Airmaster and I hope that is the issue.  A very cursory quick check showed about 30 degrees on the backside of the prop and an inability to get up to 5000 rpm on one quick full power run. What are those with Airmasters running for fine pitch?



The weight and balance was completed and  the aircraft as it sits now primered for fly off  but now  final paint has its Cg about  7/10 of an inch behind the forward limit. (good news).  I  haven't permanately mounted the battery yet.  Right now the battery and its box of sorts in sitting centered  under the right access panel of the baggage bay shelf.  Where are other's CG's at with an empty weight?  I need to do the calculations for all the  people, baggage, fuel, aux tank combinations to see if I need to do some fine tuning with the location. Now for the (bad news) the empty weight is just about 900 lbs. Which is about 50 lbs more than I was hoping  for,  91 % of the weight is on the mono and 9 % on the tailwheel.   With some leeway available in the US for certing the gross wt  I would like to call it 1420 to get a good solid 500# payload.  I can fill it up with gas and still tote a 175#  woman around.  Just think of what I could carry with a 125# woman aboard . . .!  ! ? 

   I'm 205 sopping wet and I should be 195 so adjusting me should be a  lot easier than drilling holes  in everything to get more payload.  How many out there have their gross weights certificated for greater than 1370?

Steve Haga

A143

Mesa AZ

Getting closer!

Steve Hagar

hagargs(at)earthlink.net

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: Good news, bad news

In a message dated 19/04/2006 00:35:15 GMT Daylight Time, n9zes(at)verizon.net  

writes:



--->  I can't speak to the prop pitch issue, but I did just  resolve an 

idle speed issue with our 140.  In the process of getting  the idle 

mixture sorted (too rich), I ended up with an idle speed of about  800 

rpm or even a little more.  It would taxi pretty good at 'idle',  and 

landing was an absolute b!tch!!!!  I made some REALLY ugly  landings 

trying to get it on the ground.



Once we got the idle  adjusted to the proper 575 - 600 rpm, it lands like 

an absolute pussy cat.  





Chris - that is really interesting.  There is no way that I can get my  914 

to idle smoothly at less than about 1400 rpm and indeed in the manual 1700  is 

recommended to get a smooth runner.  How do you do it??  

 

I am very puzzled as if I adjust the throttle so that I can get below 1400  

or so  then the engine will stutter and stop and at say 1450 it will just  run 

but 'misses' and is uneven, which is not good for the weaer on bearings  etc.

 

Enlighten us please.

 

Patrick

rholder(at)avnet.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: Good news, bad news

 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 19/04/2006 00:35:15 GMT Daylight

 Time, n9zes(at)verizon.net writes:

 

 --->  I can't speak to the prop pitch issue, but I did

 just  resolve an idle speed issue with our 140.  In the

 process of getting  the idle mixture sorted (too rich),

 I ended up with an idle speed of about  800 rpm or even

 a little more.  It would taxi pretty good at 'idle',

 and landing was an absolute b!tch!!!!  I made some

 REALLY ugly  landings trying to get it on the ground.

 

 Once we got the idle  adjusted to the proper 575 - 600

 rpm, it lands like an absolute pussy cat.


	


BEBERRY(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Chris - that is really interesting.  There is no way

 that I can get my  914 to idle smoothly at less than

 about 1400 rpm and indeed in the manual 1700  is 

 recommended to get a smooth runner.  How do you do it??

 

 

 I am very puzzled as if I adjust the throttle so that I

 can get below 1400 or so  then the engine will stutter

 and stop and at say 1450 it will just  run but 'misses'

 and is uneven, which is not good for the weaer on

 bearings  etc.

 

 Enlighten us please.

 

 Patrick


	




Patrick - you may find he was talking about a 140 ! A

Cessna 140 which has a Lycoming !



Not a Rotax 



Richard

BEBERRY(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: Good news, bad news

In a message dated 19/04/2006 09:51:50 GMT Daylight Time, josok-e(at)ukolo.fi  

writes:



The  Europa XS Rotax 914 engine manual issue 8, which i happened to have in 

my  hands, says quote"You should set the throttle closed stop so that a fully  

warmed engine idles at 1200-1400 rpm. Although the engine idles more smoothly  

at 1600 rpm or more, when landing the aircraft you will benefit from minimal  

residual trust." 

Makes sense, and i am thinking of a spring kind of closed  throttle stop, 

pull to fully close, release to normal 1600 rpm. Would that  work?





I think it is good practise to carry out landings and take offs with one  

hand firmly on the throttle.. In this case there is no need to have any sort of  

automatic system which will give you a reversion to any particular throttle  

setting.

 

Patrick

europa(at)triton.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Good news, bad news

Steve,



Sounds like you're getting close.



Be sure you set the prop limit switches.  Ours needed a lot of adjustment -

several turns.  Seems like we ended up with high limit at 5700 rpm.  Also

get a prop tach or something to check your Rotax tach - ours was 300 rpm

off.  Perhaps this is your taxi speed problem.  We're on grass, and find

that we don't need to use the brakes while taxiing at 1800 rpm.



Our empty weight is 966 lbs and CG is 57.98".  We modified John Wigney's

spreadsheet to figure various CG situations.  With our figures, using your

200# pilot, you would need to land with 4 gal of fuel.



We used 1500 lbs for our paperwork - remember the quote "what would NTSB

say?" in case of an incident, hence the higher weight.  In reality we do not

anticipate loading over 1450.  There is a note from Andy concerning CG at

1450 - basically the range is smaller above 1370 lbs ( I have a copy if you

need it).



Jim & Heather Butcher

N241BW still flight testing



Do not archieve

n9zes(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: Good news, bad news

Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder 

Patrick - you may find he was talking about a 140 ! A

Cessna 140 which has a Lycoming !



Not a Rotax 



Richard



--->>> Yes, indeed.  Seems I confused a few people by replying regarding our Cessna 140, per the original post regarding C-140 landings along with Rotax idle speed.  The C-140 has a Continental C85-12 engine, 85 horsepower.



I was just relating my experience with idle speed and landings to see what sort of relation the Rotax idle has to do with how well the Monowheel, in particular, lands.



With the gear reduction on the Rotax, which is somewhere around 2.7 to 1 IIRC, a 1400 rpm idle gives a little over 500 rpm prop speed.  That should be just fine.



Chris

terrys(at)cisco.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Good news, bad news

Hi Steve,



Regarding the fine pitch stop, it needs to be adjusted until you can get

about 5700 rpm full throttle, with the airplane tied down (we put a rope

around the tail wheel axle spacers and park a car wheel on the rope).

Ours is set at about 5500-5600 rpm now, which is close enough for us.

Once you get moving a little on take-off, the rpms can rise just a

little more to get to 5700.



For idle speed, we were told by Lockwood that idling below about 1600

rpm can damage the gearbox (this may be more true on the 912S than the

others), so we set our idle at about 1600-1700 rpm.  We adjust the idle

speed (and sync) using the idle set screws on the carbs, and then adjust

the throttle cables such that the throttle lever is just off the rear

stop of the lever slot, maybe just a few millimeters.  This way, if you

hold the lever back with your hand, you can reduce the idle just a bit

more for landings (by about 50-100 rpm less).

It is true that the higher idle speed will cause the plane to float just

a bit more on landings, but with the Airmaster prop fine pitch adjusted

correctly, we have no problem landing solo with this idle setting.



I suspect your plane is taxiing too fast at the higher idle because the

fine pitch is set too course.  Once you get the fine pitch set

correctly, you may find that the taxi speed is more acceptable at idle.

I guess another problem could be your tachometer accuracy.  We verified

ours with an optical prop tach designed for model airplane use.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135 / N135TD

XS Mono with 912S and Airmaster.



--

SPurpura(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: Good news, bad news

I hear the 914 gear box will last longer and it idles smoother  if you idle 

about 2000rpm,my throttles will pull back to 1500 rpm whitch I use on short 

final to minimize the float but I bring the rpm's back up to 2000 rpm before 

leaving the runway.

Sam N77EU

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