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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Hey Gordon, I am at Simcom at Westwind school. Yes, I an going to be flying one of those things again. My instructor is flying N300TC! Imagine that!!!!!!!!!!
Bill
In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 _filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 _filtered {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} (at)font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 p.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 li.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:link,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:visited,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 pre {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.emailstyle18 {font-family:Arial; color:navy;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;}(at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.Section1 {page:Section1;} Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com (white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com) writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012345678 |
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90123456789
01
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Forgot, you are right, we had better gas back then. If you follow the Commander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and theorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 _filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 _filtered {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} (at)font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 p.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 li.MsoNormal,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:link,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:visited,#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 pre {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.emailstyle18 {font-family:Arial; color:navy;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.EmailStyle19 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;}(at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.Section1 {page:Section1;} Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com (white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com) writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012345678 |
9012345678http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
90123456789
01
2 |
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
| Quote: |
====================================
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
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[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Yup, 25-50 deg is too lean. IGSO's require 100 deg.
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:23:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft(at)aol.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 td{color:black;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} _filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 p.MsoNormal, #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 li.MsoNormal, #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:link, #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:visited, #AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.emailstyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.EmailStyle19 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} _filtered {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}#AOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.Section1 {} Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com (white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com) writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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| Quote: | | Hey Gordon, I am at Simcom at Westwind school. Yes, I an going to be flying one of those things again. My instructor is flying N300TC! Imagine that!!!!!!!!!! |
Gadzooks! It's a small world (but I'd hate to have to paint it).
On topic, I'm doing an R.O.N. at Fresno, California (KFAT) and have been reminiscing about how this was where I did my first dual cross-country in 1974 ... the it was one of the points of my solo long cross country ... and then as an instructor, I brought my students here for their first dual X-C (it's 100.5 nm from Watsonville!) and then I started flying in here as a freight dog in an AeroCommander 680E in about 1978.
And when I got to Pago Pago in 1994, there was that very same 680E, in Inter Island Air colors.
Now we need to examine why our careers are built upon out of production airplanes.
Maybe it's because the out of production airplanes are so good ....
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos.
[quote]On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
[quote] Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
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wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.c
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Folks,
I certainly concur about the IO-540.
Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran “Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats.
The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available.
The difference between “high rpm/low boost” and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP.
There are some amazing old wife’s tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner’s Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife’s tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal.
This really upset the “lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out” brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has “standard” injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life.
To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. [quote]
On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: |
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
>
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nt> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.c
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Bill,Do you use 50 ROP on coolest or hotest cylinder? Are you using CHT or EGT?Craig
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:07:34 EDT
To: <commander-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
75% power on a IGSO is not recommended. However as you indicated abov= e 75%=20 150-200 rich is mandatory. On the IGO 540 I use 50 deg rich, on the IGSO= I use=20 100 deg, rich.
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:25:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Good Evening Bill,
I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are= happy=20 with what you have there is no need to change.
And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good= idea.=20 If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am=20 surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you cou= ld=20 operate.
Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more,= I=20 would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this= =20 assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich= is the=20 better compromise, but it ain't good!
However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has we= ll=20 balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions.= There=20 is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright= that=20 makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to= get an=20 even distribution of fuel to each cylinder.
I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years,=20 but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine= with=20 the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I= found=20 that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best= =20 power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only sav= ed=20 fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wri= ght=20 engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is= no=20 magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked= well=20 for him.
What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I= own 2=20 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly= per=20 the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know th= at=20 operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that= fly=20 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are desi= gned=20 for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cyli= nders.=20
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They= said=20 that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough= to=20 justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person ha= s done=20 every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have kno= w=20 every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, Tha= t was=20 a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. = We=20 never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought= it=20 and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,= =20 BobsV35B(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years= old,=20 but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean si= de of=20 peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas= I did=20 occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low= power=20 settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no= harm=20 at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last si= xty=20 years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good=20 distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern= engine=20 analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airpla= ne=20 could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with= no=20 roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taug= ht by=20 Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI=20 folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that= each=20 cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet don= e so,=20 I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If= you=20 can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with= a=20 group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a bel= iever=20 in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Tim= e,=20 white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com writes:
[quote] Sure=20 is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend.&nbs= p;=20 Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After= =20 double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped.= =20 Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking afte= r=20 being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped= the 5=20 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well.&nb= sp;=20 Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and= they=20 have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have= the=20 GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what= is=20 going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience= with=20 this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me= cringe!=20
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now.= I need=20 to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those= =20 issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for= =20 that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and=20 bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has= been=20 the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! &n= bsp;=20 Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fal= l will=20 see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's al= l=20 looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperst= ore=20 <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com>
To:=20 commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00=20 PM
Subject: RE:= =20 Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lo= st my=20 Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new deskto= p this=20 past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail= server=20 lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my= =20 laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a= year=20 ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out an= d=20 sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.= =20
Yest= erday I=20 stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around= to see=20 if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thin= g=20 anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight= I saw=20 this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I ha= ve=20 seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. <= /P>
Crai= g, is she=20 still under your command?
Than= ks
Nico=
From= :=20 owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com=20 [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig=20 kennedy
Sent:= Monday,=20 July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To:=20 commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Re:=20 Commanders
He= llo=20 gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F= =20 N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Par= is ,=20 TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. = =20 Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the pro= blems=20 sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remain= ing=20 issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. May= be=20 even a trip for the annual get=20 together.
Craig</= TABLE>
[quote] <=
B> [/b][quote]</=
FONT><=
SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?=
Commander-Listhttp:=
//forums.matronics.com<=
B> [/b]0[quote]<=
B> [/b]1
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amg3636(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Bill,
What is your opnion as to mixture on my straight 500 with O540's??
Roland Gilliam AC 6291B
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Forgot, you are right, we had better gas back then. If you follow the Commander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and theorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
[quote] Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
--
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:23 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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That is a carbureted engine. I I would run it 50-75 deg. rich.
50 if it is smooth.
Bill
In a message dated 5/4/2010 10:18:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, amg3636(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Bill,
What is your opnion as to mixture on my straight 500 with O540's??
Roland Gilliam AC 6291B
From: BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 01:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Forgot, you are right, we had better gas back then. If you follow the Commander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and theorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons(at)hotmail.com>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
.ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 td {color:black;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 ecx_filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 ecx_filtered {;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 p.ecxMsoNormal, .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 li.ecxMsoNormal, .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.ecxMsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:link, .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.ecxMsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 a:visited, .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.ecxMsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 pre {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Courier New';} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.ecxemailstyle18 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 span.ecxEmailStyle19 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass #ecxAOLMsgPart_2_1958bb6e-5e00-481e-af36-2d2b86b23959 div.ecxSection1 {page:Section1;} Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B(at)aol.com (BobsV35B(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: | Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com (white_rhino_ps(at)yahoo.com) writes:
| Quote: | Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)>
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
012345678 |
9012345678http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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|
Ever hear of Max Conrad. He set many world distance records in a Comanche and Twin Comanche running over square. He would run 1500 rpm and all the MP he could get up to 24 inches. The only thing was he had to rely on Lycoming to calculate the BMEP for him. It was very critical. Don't remember if he ran LOP. I doubt it.
Bill
In a message dated 5/4/2010 4:39:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Folks,
I certainly concur about the IO-540.
Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran “Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats.
The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available.
The difference between “high rpm/low boost” and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP.
There are some amazing old wife’s tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner’s Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife’s tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal.
This really upset the “lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out” brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has “standard” injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life.
To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. | Quote: |
On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: |
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Good Morning Bill,
Funny you should mention Max.
We worked together for a short period of time when he was involved with a couple of other folks operating an FBO at Joliet, Illinois. We called it Max Conrad Aviation.
We had many discussions as to how he operated in that long range cruise operation and it was always on the lean side IF good distribution could be obtained.
He used a procedure similar to what I have advocated in that he would see how much airspeed he could lose before things got rough. With perfect distribution you can lean down until all cylinders quit firing and you will know that, at that particular power setting, you have perfect distribution. If the engine gets rough before the airspeed drops, distribution stinks. If while leaning you get a small increase in airspeed then a drop of ten MPH before the onset of roughness, distribution is pretty good.
Max did a lot of experimentation using carburetor heat and other modes to find a point of good distribution. He did know enough about engines to realize that maximum power for any certain airflow was obtained at some point slightly richer than what we now call LOP. In those days, we did not have EGT gauges and we worked in reference to best power.
As has been mentioned here often, best power comes well rich of peak EGT. The absolutely hottest place you can run any cylinder is fifty rich of peak. At 65 percent power or below, that is fine. At a higher power you are pushing the engine very close to a bad operating range.
When fuel distribution is bad, one cylinder may be at peak EGT, another might be running lean of peak EGT and another well rich of peak EGT.
If distribution is bad and you really need the power, the engine should be run at least 150 rich of peak EGT. That will assure that all cylinders are getting enough fuel for the power desired.
If you are looking for maximum range, as Max was, you tried to run on the lean side when at all practical. Max had it worked out where he could almost always run well lean of what we would now call LOP.
I always enjoyed talking to Max about lean side operations because he was one of the few pilots of that era who understood what we were doing and what were the problems that could be encountered.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 5/5/2010 1:35:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: | Ever hear of Max Conrad. He set many world distance records in a Comanche and Twin Comanche running over square. He would run 1500 rpm and all the MP he could get up to 24 inches. The only thing was he had to rely on Lycoming to calculate the BMEP for him. It was very critical. Don't remember if he ran LOP. I doubt it.
Bill
In a message dated 5/4/2010 4:39:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Folks,
I certainly concur about the IO-540.
Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran “Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats.
The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available.
The difference between “high rpm/low boost” and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP.
There are some amazing old wife’s tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner’s Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife’s tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal.
This really upset the “lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out” brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has “standard” injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life.
To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. | Quote: |
On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: |
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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I found this about Max. I just had to know more about him:
http://soloflights.org/conrad_data_e.html
Very interesting reading. There are links across the top of the page that contain more of the flights themselves.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 12:29 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Good Morning Bill,
Funny you should mention Max.
We worked together for a short period of time when he was involved with a couple of other folks operating an FBO at Joliet, Illinois. We called it Max Conrad Aviation.
We had many discussions as to how he operated in that long range cruise operation and it was always on the lean side IF good distribution could be obtained.
He used a procedure similar to what I have advocated in that he would see how much airspeed he could lose before things got rough. With perfect distribution you can lean down until all cylinders quit firing and you will know that, at that particular power setting, you have perfect distribution. If the engine gets rough before the airspeed drops, distribution stinks. If while leaning you get a small increase in airspeed then a drop of ten MPH before the onset of roughness, distribution is pretty good.
Max did a lot of experimentation using carburetor heat and other modes to find a point of good distribution. He did know enough about engines to realize that maximum power for any certain airflow was obtained at some point slightly richer than what we now call LOP. In those days, we did not have EGT gauges and we worked in reference to best power.
As has been mentioned here often, best power comes well rich of peak EGT. The absolutely hottest place you can run any cylinder is fifty rich of peak. At 65 percent power or below, that is fine. At a higher power you are pushing the engine very close to a bad operating range.
When fuel distribution is bad, one cylinder may be at peak EGT, another might be running lean of peak EGT and another well rich of peak EGT.
If distribution is bad and you really need the power, the engine should be run at least 150 rich of peak EGT. That will assure that all cylinders are getting enough fuel for the power desired.
If you are looking for maximum range, as Max was, you tried to run on the lean side when at all practical. Max had it worked out where he could almost always run well lean of what we would now call LOP.
I always enjoyed talking to Max about lean side operations because he was one of the few pilots of that era who understood what we were doing and what were the problems that could be encountered.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 5/5/2010 1:35:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1(at)aol.com writes:
| Quote: |
Ever hear of Max Conrad. He set many world distance records in a Comanche and Twin Comanche running over square. He would run 1500 rpm and all the MP he could get up to 24 inches. The only thing was he had to rely on Lycoming to calculate the BMEP for him. It was very critical. Don't remember if he ran LOP. I doubt it.
Bill
In a message dated 5/4/2010 4:39:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Folks,
I certainly concur about the IO-540.
Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran “Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats.
The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available.
The difference between “high rpm/low boost” and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP.
There are some amazing old wife’s tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner’s Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife’s tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal.
This really upset the “lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out” brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has “standard” injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life.
To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. | Quote: |
On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: |
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
>
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nt> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
| Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP |
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Wouldn't he run the risk of pre-ignition (detonation?) on 1500 x 24"?
Although lower RPM would result in less fuel flow because less air is pumped, it does sound extreme. Even though Lycoming calculated the BMEP, one's hair still tends to stand on end.
Interesting, though.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:29 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Ever hear of Max Conrad. He set many world distance records in a Comanche and Twin Comanche running over square. He would run 1500 rpm and all the MP he could get up to 24 inches. The only thing was he had to rely on Lycoming to calculate the BMEP for him. It was very critical. Don't remember if he ran LOP. I doubt it.
Bill
In a message dated 5/4/2010 4:39:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wjrhamilton(at)optusnet.com.au writes:
| Quote: |
Folks,
I certainly concur about the IO-540.
Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran “Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats.
The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available.
The difference between “high rpm/low boost” and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP.
There are some amazing old wife’s tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner’s Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife’s tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal.
This really upset the “lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out” brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has “standard” injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life.
To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders.
Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH.
My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon.
The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it.
Cheers,
John
sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. | Quote: |
On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, <BillLeff1(at)aol.com (BillLeff1(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem.
That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack.
However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed.
Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines?
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde(at)aol.com (KenWHyde(at)aol.com) writes:
| Quote: |
Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's??
Thanks,
Ken
>
> ===========
> t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Lis...
nt> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
| Quote: | | http://forums.matronics.com |
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