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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
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 Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: The state of the industry |
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AMEN.
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
| Quote: | Subject: Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC
Now to the point:
I suggest you dial in "Flying Cheap" on PBS - I watched an article
on typing "PBS Buffalo - flying cheap" into Google. Perhaps there are
better
|
| Quote: | ways unknown to me. The title is typically bad grammar, but the content is
revealing.
|
Do not archiv
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 4:57 am Post subject: The state of the industry |
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Good Morning glen,
Yes this IS way off topic, but I will make a comment anyway. <G>
I agree with both sides of this argument.
The vast majority of our young and new aviators are competent serious students of the art and it is a very safe mode of transportation.
However there are a few that slip through the cracks.
The low pay, lousy working conditions, and lack of respect afforded to professional pilots certainly does not promote improvement.
The current level of safety was obtained during the days when a pilot could expect to stay with one carrier for an entire career. There was a strong union that worked hard to address safety issues and to maintain professional standards. The pay and working conditions were definitely secondary goals.
The atmosphere was such that those who made the various cuts worked hard to maintain the overall level of proficiency.
And cuts there were!
We often talk about folks "washing out" of military training. That term is rarely used in civilian life.
At least ninety percent of our pilots were military trained and that evaluation philosophy was carried over into civilian flying. It was not just the instructors and evaluators that made decisions on who stayed and who went on to other endeavors, it was the pilots on the line who trained and evaluated the newcomers.
There were twenty-eight highly qualified pilots in my new hire class. Seven of those left the group during our six week training course. That was about average. Some classes had as many as half leave the program. I don't know of any class when all participants were accepted.
All pilots were subject to very strict scrutiny for the first year. Anyone could be released for any reason. Out of the twenty-one that made it through training school, another five of my class left during that first year. Captains were required to file a report on every copilot that flew with them until the copilot had three years on the line.
There was no recourse for those who were released during the first year.
After three years of flying copilot, each pilot was sent to captain upgrading. It had nothing to do with actually flying as captain, it was strictly an evaluation point in his (There were no females involved!) career. While the applicant did get an ATP and a type rating from the course, the more serious part was the evaluation by a board of senior pilots as to whether or not the applicant would make a good captain.
If the applicant was marginal, but showed promise, he would be sent back to the line for a six month period and assigned to fly with captains who were felt to have the knack of bringing out the best in young aviators. A second chance at "Captain Upgrading" was then given.
The result was that at the end of four years, a pilot had been pretty heavily monitored, knew that he had the capabilities needed, and had gained the respect of his peers.
The lack of stability and the idea that full evaluation is made by the check pilots and not by the line pilots has been a negative factor that has led to what we now see. Folks slip through the cracks who would have been weeded out in the more stable environment of yesteryear
The idea that any set of rules will make a difference is ridiculous. It is a stable environment combined with constant peer evaluation that makes the very best aviator.
Requiring a minimum amount of flying time is a typical bureaucratic answer that makes for a good sound bite but has no validity at all. Some of our early washouts were very high time pilots and some of our very best long term aviators had only a couple hundred hours when they first sat in that right seat.
It is the attitude that counts the most!
I sure DO NOT have an answer, but I think we aviators need to be the ones who make the decisions, not a bunch of ivory tower sideliners.
Flame away at will my friends, but that is the way I see it!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(soloed 64 years ago this month)
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 5/27/2010 6:44:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, aerobubba(at)earthlink.net writes:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
AMEN.
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
| Quote: | Subject: AeroElectric-List: Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC
Now to the point:
I suggest you dial in "Flying Cheap" on PBS - I watched an article
on typing "PBS Buffalo - flying cheap" into Google. Perhaps there are
better
|
| Quote: | ways unknown to me. The title is typically bad grammar, but the content is
revealing.
|
Do not ======================== = Use utilities Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
|
[quote][b]
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: The state of the industry |
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Off topic warning; Everyone else hit delete!
And, Do not archive.
Good morning, Old Bob,
You needn't worry about the nomex undies, not from this quarter.
I will say though, our careers have taken very different paths. I suspect
your military career was over and you were in the left seat before I was
born ;-P
but that does not alter the reality that I and my coworkers lived. Then
again, not all of them lived.
Like many of a later generation / iteration, I've witnessed unprecedented
growth, the transition from non-union to union, and the failure of a couple
major carriers first hand. Then there were the corporate and fractional
gigs.
While there are plenty of conscientious operators out there, not all
operators are created equal. With the turn over and growth rates at some
carriers at different points in history, folks have gone from CFI to
captain in a year's time or less. This creates potential for crewmembers
not being exposed to all they could while still in a mentoring environment.
If a carrier can't quite bring itself to ensure that it's crews are
equipped to operate in the prevailing conditions, someone else needs to.
During his testimony before congress after the debacle in NY, Randy Babbitt
indicated that he was going to pursue better and more diversified training
for air carrier pilots while lowering the total time requirement for the
ATP. Less quantity, more quality. So far, it sounds like some common
sense might get infused into our system. I suspect that the proposed
changes will have zero impact on the syllabus at your alma mater, but it
would have required adding quite a bit of new material at my first carrier.
I also suspect that you will agree that Randy hardly qualifies as a
"sideliner".
Like you, I don't profess to have the answers, but I do know a few things
that don't work. Principal among those is leaving the fox to guard the
chicken coop. Corporate culture is the most powerful element at work here,
and ever since deregulation the biggest motivator for carriers, by far, has
been "Flying Cheap".
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
| Quote: | Good Morning glen,
Yes this IS way off topic, but I will make a comment anyway. <G>
I agree with both sides of this argument.
The vast majority of our young and new aviators are competent serious
students of the art and it is a very safe mode of transportation.
However there are a few that slip through the cracks.
The low pay, lousy working conditions, and lack of respect afforded to
professional pilots certainly does not promote improvement.
The current level of safety was obtained during the days when a pilot
could
|
| Quote: | expect to stay with one carrier for an entire career. There was a
strong
|
| Quote: | union that worked hard to address safety issues and to maintain
professional standards. The pay and working conditions were definitely
secondary
|
| Quote: | goals.
The atmosphere was such that those who made the various cuts worked hard
to
|
| Quote: | maintain the overall level of proficiency.
And cuts there were!
We often talk about folks "washing out" of military training. That term
is
|
| Quote: | rarely used in civilian life.
At least ninety percent of our pilots were military trained and that
evaluation philosophy was carried over into civilian flying. It was not
just
|
| Quote: |
the instructors and evaluators that made decisions on who stayed and who
went
|
| Quote: |
on to other endeavors, it was the pilots on the line who trained and
evaluated the newcomers.
There were twenty-eight highly qualified pilots in my new hire class.
Seven
|
| Quote: | of those left the group during our six week training course. That was
about average. Some classes had as many as half leave the program. I
don't
|
| Quote: | know of any class when all participants were accepted.
All pilots were subject to very strict scrutiny for the first year.
Anyone
|
| Quote: | could be released for any reason. Out of the twenty-one that made it
through training school, another five of my class left during that first
year.
|
| Quote: |
Captains were required to file a report on every copilot that flew with
them
|
| Quote: | until the copilot had three years on the line.
There was no recourse for those who were released during the first year.
After three years of flying copilot, each pilot was sent to captain
upgrading. It had nothing to do with actually flying as captain, it was
strictly
|
| Quote: |
an evaluation point in his (There were no females involved!) career.
While
|
| Quote: | the applicant did get an ATP and a type rating from the course, the more
serious part was the evaluation by a board of senior pilots as to
whether or
|
| Quote: | not the applicant would make a good captain.
If the applicant was marginal, but showed promise, he would be sent back
to
|
| Quote: | the line for a six month period and assigned to fly with captains who
were
|
| Quote: | felt to have the knack of bringing out the best in young aviators. A
second chance at "Captain Upgrading" was then given.
The result was that at the end of four years, a pilot had been pretty
heavily monitored, knew that he had the capabilities needed, and had
gained the
|
| Quote: |
respect of his peers.
The lack of stability and the idea that full evaluation is made by the
check pilots and not by the line pilots has been a negative factor that
has led
|
| Quote: |
to what we now see. Folks slip through the cracks who would have been
weeded out in the more stable environment of yesteryear
The idea that any set of rules will make a difference is ridiculous. It
is
|
| Quote: | a stable environment combined with constant peer evaluation that makes
the
|
| Quote: | very best aviator.
Requiring a minimum amount of flying time is a typical bureaucratic
answer
|
| Quote: | that makes for a good sound bite but has no validity at all. Some of our
early washouts were very high time pilots and some of our very best long
term
|
| Quote: |
aviators had only a couple hundred hours when they first sat in that
right
|
| Quote: | seat.
It is the attitude that counts the most!
I sure DO NOT have an answer, but I think we aviators need to be the ones
|
| Quote: | who make the decisions, not a bunch of ivory tower sideliners.
Flame away at will my friends, but that is the way I see it!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(soloed 64 years ago this month)
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 5/27/2010 6:44:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net writes:
<aerobubba(at)earthlink.net>
AMEN.
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
> Subject: Whither Aviation OFF TOPIC
>
> Now to the point:
> I suggest you dial in "Flying Cheap" on PBS - I watched an article
> on typing "PBS Buffalo - flying cheap" into Google. Perhaps there are
better
> ways unknown to me. The title is typically bad grammar, but the
content
|
| Quote: | is
> revealing.
Do not archiv
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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| Back to top |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: The state of the industry |
|
|
| Quote: |
It is the attitude that counts the most!
I sure DO NOT have an answer, but I think we aviators need to be the ones who make the decisions, not a bunch of ivory tower sideliners. |
This phenomenon is present throughout most
if not all technology based services and
industries. There's a growing trend in belief
that if you can write, administrate and enforce
the right policies, then all will be right
with the world.
Virtually ALL the companies that offered me
opportunity to grow in skill and understanding
no longer avail themselves of those exact same
skill-sets nurtured by an 'obsolete' business
model that made my own career possible.
I could not hire into Hawker-Beech as an engineer
today. New policy. I CAN contract as a technical
services specialist . . . at a rate considerably
higher than I made there while wearing a badge
that called me engineer! I think I like being
a TSS better!
The phenomenon is endemic to the culture.
Folks in positions of power have been
given or have assumed control over skill-
sets they do not personally possess nor
understand. Bureaucratic organized stagnation
is replacing entrepreneurial spontaneous
order.
This is being demonstrated throughout the
full spectrum of those who would call
themselves leader and/or crafter of a
successful business model in our nation.
The counter-productive effort of elitist
leadership has exerted a strangle-hold on
independently self sufficient persons in
many societies for hundreds of years. It's
our turn in the barrel.
The over worked, under trained ATP pilot has many
counterparts in every industry. Unfortunately,
it may require a game-changing and devastating
event before it turns around . . . and
only if opportunities for the truly productive
are not quashed.
If aviation for the ordinary citizen recovers,
it will be from the efforts of folks like those
on the Lists. Even the EAA, for all it's facility,
programs and cash flow will have little if
anything to do with a new future of aviation.
If we want little airplanes to be around for
our grandchildren, YOU and I and our FRIENDS
are going to have to do it.
| Quote: |
Flame away at will my friends, but that is the way I see it! |
Your vision may be a scene from your worst nightmare
but it's not a hallucination. The things
you've observed are demonstrably common
EVERYWHERE.
| Quote: | Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(soloed 64 years ago this month) |
Younger Bob . . .
(soloed on Memorial Day 29 years ago)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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