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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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 Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 3:12 am Post subject: Europa News |
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All
I got today Kitplanes July 2010 Magazine and there is a nice Europa story with the front cover photo "Europa´s Second Act!" and the story itself "Europa Returns!".
I have some questions, please give me some good estimations:
1) The 1000th Europa kit sold 2005. How many they have sold now all together until this day?
2) The new owner - Swift Aviation - do they have sold any kits so far?
3) How many Europas there are flying around the world (my guess: 300 pcs) ?
4) What is the basic reason for quite low retail prices (at least in England) ?
In the Light Aviation there are regularly Europas for sale and asking prices are around 30 t£ and typical RVs are double.
Maybe there are "too" many Europas in that area.
[img]cid:ECD77FAB647E492E89E69C3D65DD1DAD(at)Asus[/img]
EFPU 2008
Terveisin, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
37500 Lempäälä
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio(at)fly.to (toivio(at)fly.to)
www.rwm.fi
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g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: Europa News |
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Raimo
To the best of my knowledge the total number of Europa kits sold to date is about 900. I worked out that Peter Kember’s aircraft (which KW decided to label the “1000th”) was probably No 890.
From 2004 to 2008 (when Swift took over) the total number of new kits sold was I believe 4.
Since Swift took over I believe they have sold 2 and have orders for about 3.
As for the number flying this is harder to estimate. In the UK we have about 170 with permits. Worldwide your 300 is probably about right
The price of a low hours (nearly new) built Europa has, for a number of year, been about the cost of the parts. Given that the buyer has to accept the risk of discovering faults, damage this is not surprising. As the aircraft get older the price drops a little. You have to look very carefully at the details of the aircraft (Classic or XS, engine, paintwork, upholstery, avionics etc) to know if the price is fair.
On day, when I have time, I would like to research these figures as part of a “History of Europa”.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 1:51 pm Post subject: Europa News |
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Ian
that was shocking info!
I really believed as did the whole world Peter´s 2nd one was really the 1000th.
KW was a market man but it is hard to accept it was not the 1000th.
I wish all the best for Swift (and for us, builders, operators and Europa owners).
The Kit Planes article made good for us (thanks for Kim Prout!).
The completed and well test flight Europa retail price: it should be around 80.000 - 120.000 euros when compareing for typical LSA-types.
Our Europas are much much more than any LSAs as we well know!
Please if you are forced to sell, ask more!
You Englishmen - sell worldwide - not only inside your little island which is full of all kind of flying items!
We are the market!
Terveisin, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +154 hrs (that is the one and only in the country so it must be the most valuable in the country)
37500 Lempäälä
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio(at)fly.to (toivio(at)fly.to)
www.rwm.fi
From: G-IANI (g-iani(at)ntlworld.com)
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Europa News
Raimo
To the best of my knowledge the total number of Europa kits sold to date is about 900. I worked out that Peter Kember’s aircraft (which KW decided to label the “1000th”) was probably No 890.
From 2004 to 2008 (when Swift took over) the total number of new kits sold was I believe 4.
Since Swift took over I believe they have sold 2 and have orders for about 3.
As for the number flying this is harder to estimate. In the UK we have about 170 with permits. Worldwide your 300 is probably about right
The price of a low hours (nearly new) built Europa has, for a number of year, been about the cost of the parts. Given that the buyer has to accept the risk of discovering faults, damage this is not surprising. As the aircraft get older the price drops a little. You have to look very carefully at the details of the aircraft (Classic or XS, engine, paintwork, upholstery, avionics etc) to know if the price is fair.
On day, when I have time, I would like to research these figures as part of a “History of Europa”.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: Europa News |
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On May 27, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | | The completed and well test flight Europa retail price: it should be around 80.000 - 120.000 euros when compareing for typical LSA-types. |
Raimo,
FWIW, when I last checked Barnstormers.com, there was a Classic for sale w/ 250 hrs., 80 hp 912, all mandatory mods done...askin price of $22,500 USD...located in state of Georgia, USA I believe...not sure who built it or quality of build, but photos look fine...go figure...
Fred
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:23 pm Post subject: Europa News |
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**This email is written without malice.**
"I really believed as did the whole world Peter´s 2nd one was really the
1000th.
KW was a market man but it is hard to accept it was not the 1000th."
It is absolutely *not* surprising. KW definitively lied to me directly
and deceived me on the phone less than 2 weeks before Europa went bankrupt
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:23 am Post subject: Europa News |
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Fred,
that price is hard to accept. Today 22500 US$ = 18359 euros. Same price as a little new car from Asia or two new Bang&Olufsen Beovision 10 led-TV-set or one good three week around the world trip for family or typical wedding costs. Building an Europa means about +3000 hrs labour, so you get about 6 euros /hrs and nothing from the stuf. Some builders´ panel alone costs more than that price!
Obviously building an Europa (or any plane) is not a good investment for money or time.
But it is still the best mental health investment man can do.
And gives more joy than any "toy" on the globe.
Personally, I will never sell my Europa if it is price would be less than 100 000 euros. Obviously that is not possible and that means I will be an Europa-owner for ever. Maybe it will be some day a good garden decoration on the top of the pylon.
Raimo
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 1:38 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Europa News
On May 27, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | | The completed and well test flight Europa retail price: it should be around 80.000 - 120.000 euros when compareing for typical LSA-types. |
Raimo,
FWIW, when I last checked Barnstormers.com, there was a Classic for sale w/ 250 hrs., 80 hp 912, all mandatory mods done...askin price of $22,500 USD...located in state of Georgia, USA I believe...not sure who built it or quality of build, but photos look fine...go figure...
Fred
[quote]
title="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Avaa linkki painamalla Ctrl-näppäintä ja napsauttamalla linkkiä" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronpainamalla Ctrl-näppäintä ja napsauttamalla linkkiä" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: Europa News |
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**This email is written with malice**
Pete,
I met KW 1st. of June 2002 in Stockholm. I noticed something must be wrong because he paid about twenty person´s BIG eatin and drinkin restaurant bill by his Europa Aircraft credit card. I also noticed his impressive camera systems which I had never seen before.
I am really sorry about your sad history with him.
I was lucky - I got my order just before the doors were closed.
If this kind of "man" were here, it would be a common habit to castrate him.
Raimo
**This email is written with malice**
From: Peter Zutrauen (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:14 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Europa News
**This email is written without malice.**
"I really believed as did the whole world Peter´s 2nd one was really the 1000th. KW was a market man but it is hard to accept it was not the 1000th."
It is absolutely *not* surprising. KW definitively lied to me directly and deceived me on the phone less than 2 weeks before Europa went bankrupt. In my lay-person's opinion, KW should be serving jail time for his wrong-doings, deceit, and unethical opportunism. Many people, and the brand suffered as a result.
How one person was left to financially crush a company with a great product is still beyond my comprehension.
I also wish the best for Swift - the Europa is still a very eloquent design. It was definitely way ahead of its time.
Cheers,
Pete
**This email is written without malice.**
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:
[quote] Ian
that was shocking info!
I really believed as did the whole world Peter´s 2nd one was really the 1000th.
KW was a market man but it is hard to accept it was not the 1000th.
I wish all the best for Swift (and for us, builders, operators and Europa owners).
The Kit Planes article made good for us (thanks for Kim Prout!).
The completed and well test flight Europa retail price: it should be around 80.000 - 120.000 euros when compareing for typical LSA-types.
Our Europas are much much more than any LSAs as we well know!
Please if you are forced to sell, ask more!
You Englishmen - sell worldwide - not only inside your little island which is full of all kind of flying items!
We are the market!
Terveisin, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417 +154 hrs (that is the one and only in the country so it must be the most valuable in the country)
37500 Lempäälä
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio(at)fly.to (toivio(at)fly.to)
www.rwm.fi
From: G-IANI (g-iani(at)ntlworld.com)
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 4:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Europa News
Raimo
To the best of my knowledge the total number of Europa kits sold to date is about 900. I worked out that Peter Kember’s aircraft (which KW decided to label the “1000th”) was probably No 890.
From 2004 to 2008 (when Swift took over) the total number of new kits sold was I believe 4.
Since Swift took over I believe they have sold 2 and have orders for about 3.
As for the number flying this is harder to estimate. In the UK we have about 170 with permits. Worldwide your 300 is probably about right
The price of a low hours (nearly new) built Europa has, for a number of year, been about the cost of the parts. Given that the buyer has to accept the risk of discovering faults, damage this is not surprising. As the aircraft get older the price drops a little. You have to look very carefully at the details of the aircraft (Classic or XS, engine, paintwork, upholstery, avionics etc) to know if the price is fair.
On day, when I have time, I would like to research these figures as part of a “History of Europa”.
Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours
Europa Club Mods Specialist
e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com (g-iani(at)ntlworld.com)
| Quote: |
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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jglazener
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 76
Location: Schoonhoven, Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Europa News |
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The way KW ended up claiming 1000 kits sold was the same as his bookkeeping: very creative. I know for one thing that every tail kit, even if the customer never came back, was noted as a plane sold. I don't know the exact further details, but if everyone who buys something from you is put down as someone who will eventually buy a full plane, you can rack up sales pretty quickly. At least he was honest in listing kits sold, not kits delivered...
I was also disappointed to see EA 2004 only sold four. That would mean I am responsible for an impressive 25% of their turnover, but for all our benefit I would rather that had not been the case!
Jeroen
http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=44165
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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