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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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I'm trying to finish off Sec 29 (fuse skins, !(at)#$$#(at)^%$!!!!!!! you know
the one!) There are several rivets at the right angle juncture of the F
-1041 fwd bottom longerons and the F1042 upright bulkhead. This is where
a little triangular doubler goes to tie the pieces together (presumably)
additionally there is a nutplate that gets fastened to the triangle and
the whole joint. None of the bucking bars (or other shop paraphenalia
that I have) will fit the limited access to use as bucking bars, what
soulutions did some of you come up with?
Deems Davis # 406
Fuse
http://deemsrv10.com/
Sorry for the poor quality of the picture
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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Yep, ran into a few spots that were a PITA in this section. One thing I have learned about bucking bars is that any solid piece of iron or steel will work. Look around your shop and see if you have anything that you can get in there. You also always have the option of something like a MK-319-BS. I'm not rivet purist and if a pulled rivet will do the job in a tight spot I would rather do that and fill the hole with some bondo.
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
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owl40188(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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Hi Deems,
I finished that section about 2 months ago and have allready forgotten exactly what I did. I did use the empennage bucking bar in a lot of places and a steel plate about 1/4 " thick by about 2 inches wide and about 8 inches long which a shoved into tight areas. I believe I might have squeezed some of the rivets in the area you are talking about. I would caution against using blind rivets in this area as some of the engine loads are coming through that joint. If you absolutely must use blind rivets make sure you use something like the CherryMax ones that have a locking feature that keeps the stem in place. The problem with most of the pop rivets is that if subjected to vibration the steel stem falls off and you are left with a hollow aluminum cylinder as your fastener that has a much reduced strength.
Niko
#188 fuselage
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ichelva(at)netspace.net.a
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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Does this mean that aeroplanes with pop rivets (eg Zenith, Zodiac, upcoming RV12) will eventually fall apart?
(Do not archive)
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Napoli
Sent: Saturday, 22 April 2006 9:42 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Your bucking bar input please.
Hi Deems,
I finished that section about 2 months ago and have allready forgotten exactly what I did. I did use the empennage bucking bar in a lot of places and a steel plate about 1/4 " thick by about 2 inches wide and about 8 inches long which a shoved into tight areas. I believe I might have squeezed some of the rivets in the area you are talking about. I would caution against using blind rivets in this area as some of the engine loads are coming through that joint. If you absolutely must use blind rivets make sure you use something like the CherryMax ones that have a locking feature that keeps the stem in place. The problem with most of the pop rivets is that if subjected to vibration the steel stem falls off and you are left with a hollow aluminum cylinder as your fastener that has a much reduced strength.
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owl40188(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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Indran,
No it doesn't mean they will fall out of the sky, if they are designed properly. A designer using pop rivets without locking mechanisms assumes the stem has fallen off and thus uses a reduced strength allowable for them. You can design an aeroplane out of almost any hardware as long as you understand its limitations and account for them.
Those aeroplanes have been designed for reduced strength rivets, the RV10 has been designed for solid rivets in most of the structurally significant areas. As a rough number a solid rivet is about 3 times as strong as a pop rivet (this does not refer to the locking Cherrymax rivets.) So the designer could choose to use more rivets to account for the reduced strength or use larger diameter rivets or a combination of both. In a lot of areas the number of rivets used is determined by smoothness or other requirements besides strength. In those cases it might be okay to substitute pop rivets.
The area in question here is a major joint in the aircraft. It carries part of the engine loads. If the engine falls off during flight you will have a bad day. The only way I would use a pop rivets in this area is if I performed a structural analysis and found the reduced capability to be acceptable or specifically got an okay from Vans. I would not assume that I can use something having about 1/3 of the strength and everything would be okay.
By the way some of the stems in the rivets Vans provided have come off during installation without even being exposed to any vibration or use.
Niko
40188
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nikonapoli(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: Your bucking bar input please. |
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No it doesn't meet they will fall apart, however, in the case of pop rivets the designer assumes the steel stem is lost and uses either more rivets or larger diameter rivets. In this case a pop rivet has aboout one third the strength of a solid 2117 rivet so one can use three times as many or a larger diameter or a combination of the two. Also in a lot of cases the number of rivets is determined by criteria other than strength such as smoothness. Obviously in such cases one can use a weaker rivet without a penalty. My point below is that the joint in question is carrying engine loads and I would not weaken it by substituting pop rivets without either a detail structural analysis of the joint or an OK from Vans.
Niko
40188
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