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garnerrice(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Yes there is. It is in the maintenance manual. I beleive I'm right, but I think that if a IA is signing the annual off, he is supposed to have the lastest revision available. I say this because I deal with a lot of shops that do annuals on Grummans and they check frequently for the lastest revision. I had one IA pay to have a manual overnighted to him because the FAA was coming back to see if he had it. I could be wrong, and I'm sure I will be corrected if so. There is only one section that is approved by the FAA in the maintence manual and that is the the section on time lifed componets. The rest is only accepted by the FAA. I was under the impression that in order to get a production certificate, the aircraft manufacture had to have submitted a maintence manual for FAA acceptance, but I was at the Quarts Mountian auction and they were selling the TC for the Luscomb aircraft. Someone said that there was never a maintenance manual for the aircraft that were built. So unless there is some special reg that allowed this, I dont know. The parts manual has never been an approved source of information and is only for reference.



 



On the checklist, it goes through the list if items and has a space for the mechanic to sign off. If you offer this to the mechanic, he may welcome your assistance or attitude up and say he has his own checklist to go by. Nevertheless, I think it would be a good thing to have and request a copy of the completed list when the annual was completed. That way you would know hat mechanic did what by his initials. Also you could go over the list with that shop and question them about certain items on the list. If you get the "deer in the headlights stare" you might want to take a look at the quality of the annual.



 



Give me a call and I'd be happy to mail the check list to you and no charge. That way you will have some understanding of what they should have done in the 4 hours it took them to do the annual 



 



Garner



 



 

Garner,

              You bring up a good point. Is there a AA5 Annual checklist that is available that we can hand to the AP to ensure he’s checking everything? My AP states that he has Grumman experience and my annual (my first actually) was $750. I’d rather pay a few more dollars to make sure it’s done right.

 



Tom Quinn

  		 	   		  

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dsleepy47

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Check AC43.9C. I think you will find that when the log entry stating that the list has been given to the owner the inspection is complete and  only an A&P return to service entry for each airworthiness item is required to o operate the aircraft. The discrepancy list is a maintenance record subject to to requirement to be retained per 91.417(b)(1) and may be required to be produced by the FAA.



Deems





From: md11strejo(at)YAHOO.COM

Subject: Re: Cost of annual

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:37:54 -0400

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com



Tom,  First an A&P can't sign the annual off,  only an IA.  Second,  most A&P's/IA's us the 100hr checklist,  as long as it meets the scope and detail of CFR43D.  All AD's must be checked & compiled with on all the airframe and engine components.  Like Garner said,  This is an "Inspection"   Your A&P/IA will give you a list of items that need to be fixed in order for the annual to be signed off. 		 	   		  

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dsleepy47
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garnerrice(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

Amen Linn,

  

 I have heard horror stories from customers that their plane is torn apart in some shop and the shop can't give them any kind of estimate of time or cost for completion. 

  

 Not that paper will get your plane back for the original quoted cost, because there are some shady shops that know that they have you over the barrell, and the plane dont leave till the bill is paid, but might have some weight should litigation be needed.



 If someone tried that on me, I'd wear the phone out call that shop and say, " Please tell me one more time how you quoted me 500.00 and charged me 1500.00.  If it was a reputable shop, It might be cheaper to refund me than change their phone number they have had for 20 years. And let them know you will continue calling until you can make sense of it!!!

  

 Garner

 

  Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:41:33 -0400

From: pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Cost of annual



And when you get that quote, have them put it down on paper.  If they balk, it's time to walk ..... er .... fly.

Linn



Garner Rice wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		    .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}          Pre purchase inspection can be wast of time unless done by somebody with the knowledge. I cant tell you how many "pre purchase" inspections include good engine compression and the lights work...David Fletcher is more than happy to do a walk around and call attention anything that jumps out at him as needed. But he will tell you he doesn't like doing the 200.00 pre purchase. He would rather do the annual checklist, because too may things get missed on CHEAP inspections. In the past we would offer different levels of pre-purchase inspections. For example, there was this guy that bought a cheetah and he didn't want to to an extensive pre-buy, so we did what he wanted to pay for. Several years later, it was discovered the wheels were not the correct cleveland part numbers. Well, he wanted to hold us responsible for missing it. 

 

     On the annual inspections, FletchAir Fleet Support will charge 17 hours (at) 65.00 per hour for the inspection of the AA5B/A. Allthough it may take longer with the records search and AD listing. When the airplane was only a couple of years old,l you could pretty much know what to expect. With AD's on different manufactures components, like engine cylinder and serial number specific ones to boot. vacuum pumps and oil coolers. We recently had a plane in the shop with an AD on the oil cooler that was clearly affected and the AD was from decades ago. So the plane was annualed, lets see, 25 times and never caught?  How many good 150.00 annuals did it go through? No a confidence builder.

 

   As I said before, the inspection is just that. If you annual is out at the end of the month and you bring you plane in at the first of the month. A couple of days later, you should know what it will cost to have the necesary list of squawks done  17 hours plus the list of squawks equals the amount you should owe in order to have the annual signed off airworthy.

 

   What happens all too often is, someone takes their plane in at the end of the month and 2 days later its out of annual. The owner feels he is stuck and so is his plane. Or they take their plane in early enough and the shop drags their feet getting around to doing the inspection and all of the sudden its out of annual and again the owner feels stuck.

 

   This is what I would do.

 

Call the shop and see about scheduling an annual inspection, It is just good business to honor your word. 

How long will it take to do an annual inspection. Get a firm quote on hours (you can do the math with shop rate. No suprises there) Get a quote on how many days it will take. If they say somthing like "well we wont know until we get into it" Find a shop that knows what and how to do an inspection. 

 

If I ask them how long it will take you to look out the window, don't come back and say well it depends on how many birds he sees out there. Get the point? If he dont know or cant tell, find someone that does. If he has worth, he should know. He is a professional and should know his job

 

After the mechanic or shop gives you a quote, then let them do the inspection. A busy shop should not have a problem with doing the inspection in 2 to 3 days. If they don't, I let them know what they quoted. The customers time is valuable also. If the shop is way over due, then that shows poor time management.

 

So they shoud have about 60 to 70% of the quoted inspection time used up to tell you the list of squawks. It is a good practice to visit the shop if possible to go over the squawks on the "airworthy" items. These are things that must be fixed before it can be signed off as airworthy. It either "is" or "isn't" There shouldn't be any "might" in the airworthiness. If they say the crack in the windshield is an issue,  or the tires, brakes, plugs, need to be replaced, then all they would have to do is show me in the regs or the maintenance manual where that is the issue. If they can't and "pride up" saying they wont sign it off, then take it to someone that knows the business better. 

 

 Your plane is still in annual, then have them button it back up with the 40-30% of time left on the quoted inspection and take it to a more trusted or knowledgable shop or mechinic. I will cost you extra, but sometimes hard lessons can be expensive, but you and the ones you tell will know better next time.

 

It's your money, you can be friendly, but you dont have to be friends. Keep in mind, they need your money and want your money not your friendship. Friendship don't pay the bills, your money does. Your money. You have it, they want it. That should put you in charge, not the other way around.

 

I can't imagine someone calling for a part quote and I say 5.00 and turn around and try to charge him 10.00. I say 5, he says ok, I charge him 5. Simple strait forward business. 

 

Flying is an expensive hobby to start with. Fuel, hanger, insurance. All known cost. Good maintenance should be a known not a shock.

 

Garner



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allenc3(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: Cost of annual

When I see the cost of annual inspections here and  on the Gang, I cringe. No way could I afford my airplane if I had to cough up  4-5 G every year just for an annual. My annuals run about $200 for the AI (he  also drinks a lot of my beer) but I live on an airpark, have my own hanger and  do most of the work. I buy all my parts from Fletcher unless it is something I  need in a hurry and I get it locally. 

  

 There are 2 or 3 AI's on the field, retired guys  mostly who just like to fool with airplanes. I have all of the manuals, and I  use the Checklist from the manual. I take my time taking the airplane apart, my  AI comes and inspects the plane, does the compression check, etc, and  then gives me a gig list to work off, If I have any upgrades to do, I  usually do them while the airplane is open. My AI then comes back, inspects my  work and then ok's my putting the plane back together. Again, I take my time,  clean and paint what needs cleaning and painting. Also, I NEVER do an annual in  he summertime. Keep it in March / April.

  

 Living on an airpark makes owning and operating an  airplane a lot easer on your wallet then keeping an airplane at the airport. No  tie down or hanger fees, no driving back and forth to the airport and living  around many other talented folks who are willing to help out..

  

 Claude Allen

 Haller Field

 Green Cove Springs, Fl

  



  From: Gary Vogt (teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM) 

 Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 1:31 PM

 To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)  

 Subject: Re: Cost of annual

 



  Those are some pretty cheap annuals.  Linn, I think he said "He  charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time."  My Pre-Purchase  inspection runs $450.  

 



 When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.   At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.  

 



 I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.   I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how  many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve  overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on  mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a glance.  When I  get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6 hours going through the logs  verifying dates and times.  The data on my annuals is about as correct as  can be made.  I've seen logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had  over 200 hrs less than what showed due to transposing numbers.  If I'm  doing a plane for the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go  through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.  I make it up over the next few  years since I now know the plane.

 



 Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and  readily available at a glance.  I mean, really, just how important is it to  be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to  look for trends?  Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't  even show compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).   

 



 I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates).   I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates).  Then to $85/hr  in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress.   $90/hr in 2005.   Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.  Last  year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual.  My annuals typically  take 16 to 18 hours.

 



 After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this  whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they  were my own.  I've been treating these planes as if the owners were  involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.  Perhaps if I just  expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I  could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with  details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or  repacking wheel bearings every other year?  

 



 Owner assisted annuals:  I charge for the hours I spend working on the  plane.  Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing  that?" constitutes owner assisting.  An owner assisted annual that uses up  24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours.  At the other end of the  spectrum is Bobby:  He maintains his plane throughout the year.  When  he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off,  the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is changed.  His annuals  take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole plane.

 



 The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr.  Bob,  Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?

 



 Thanks for your input, Team.

 

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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:40 am Post subject: Cost of annual

I live on an airpark too, and I agree that it is a lot  cheaper that renting a hangar and much more convenient.  As an A&P/IA I  also work out of my hangar so I am getting double the benefit.  I do some  owner assisted annuals but I am not willing to work for essentially nothing as  your IA is.  He obviously is not relying on that income alone to  survive.

  

 Cliff

 [quote]   ---

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:02 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Thanks Mark

From: "mmacdonald(at)wi.rr.com" <mmacdonald(at)wi.rr.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 1:46:47 PM

Subject: Re: Cost of annual

 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: <mmacdonald(at)wi.rr.com (mmacdonald(at)wi.rr.com)>

Gary, it sounds like your numbers are in the ball park for annual inspections.  I take my Tiger to a shop similar ot yours.  There hourly rate is a little lower probably because they are in low overhead country.  They track all the maintenance just like you do.  My average cost over the last few years is about $1,800 which includes fixing a few squaks too (afterall the plane is 35 years old.  Seems to be a fair price and I have never found any safety issue after they were finished.  I could tell you a few stories about discoveries after an annual inspection.

The guys that work on my plane deserve to make a decent living, though they probably won't get rich doing what they do.  

Keep doing the work you do to keep the Grummans in the air.

Mark   

          [quote][b]

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: Cost of annual

"I think you've hit the biggest problem.  We treat our own equipment better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the pride or reputation of a job well done."

This is a big issue for me.  There are times when I think about cutting corners and then I remind myself of all the mechanics I slam for doing shitty work.  Then I swear.   Then I do it the way it should be done.

The only mechanic to call me about my work is Bill Scott.  To his credit, I've worked on his planes and his workmanship is obsessive compulsive when it comes to having each and every piece that came with the plane from the factory exactly where it should be.  His issue with me is not replacing the scraper on the wheel pant  when installing the fiberglass wheel pants.  I don't like them.  He also called and gave me hell for signing off a Cheetah 10 years ago (this was a recent call) that had had a larger oil cooler installed and the owner didn't have an STC or Field Approval on the installation.  To be honest, I don't even remember the plane.  HOWEVER, if I did recognize it had a larger oil cooler and the installation was up to my standards, I would have signed it off anyway, paperwork or no paperwork.  The plane never should have left the factory with that tiny oil cooler.

========================

     "I'm not so sure.  I developed a scenario when I was brokering airplanes ..... you see two guys on the ramp (buyer and seller), and they're looking at the SAME airplane."

About my inspection checklist . . .  have you ever gone through logbooks?    



Reading poor hand writing, vague entries, spending hours upon hours looking for when the such and such an AD was done or a part was changed/overhauled is a pain-in-the-ass.  The person that buys my plane will have a permanent record of every item ever done to the plane in an easy to read format.  I bought my plane in 2004.  I have filled two (5) year records.  Every hour of work is documented.  Modifications, repairs, and maintenance done between overhauls are also recorded.  Bill Kelly also has a very complete record of maintenance and repair.  Trust me, when it comes time to sell, the buyer won't need more than 15 minutes to see the results of 10 years of compression tests and make up his mind for himself what condition the engine is in.  The same goes for the rest of plane

 . . . .  but then, I'm sure there are those owners out there that just  don't care one way or the other.  As long as the cost of ownership is cheap, that's all that matters.  

========================

Claude wrote: "When I see the cost of annual inspections here and on the Gang, I cringe. No way could I afford my airplane if I had to cough up 4-5 G every year just for an annual. "   I had to smile.  First, I don't think I could afford $4,000-$5,000 annuals is I had to pay that every year.  Second, the annuals I do on worst case scenarios, planes that have been ignored for many years, are more like on particular example I have, $10,000 the first year, $7,000 the second, $3,000 the third, and $1500 to $2000 since then.  Corl's plane, the $80,000 Cheetah, gets by with a minimum amount of work during an annual.   It will need to have the wheel bearing packed this year, but that's about it.  

========================

Bob, I need to raise my rates!

========================

Thanks for all your input, Team.  This economy is affecting us all.  I've thought about moving to Lake Almanor, writing action novels, and say I've had enough.  Maybe next year.  Until then, I'm going to think about the whole annuals thing.  I want to find away to include those who are used to $300 annuals and not scare them away with $1500 annuals.  

Grumman owners like Ric, who can get an annual done for $650 including new brakes and muffler replacement, without flying 2 1/2 hours to Auburn, well, I could never compete with that.  Removing wheel pants, replacing brake linings, cleaning up and lubricating the guide pins, bending the brake lines into the right shape so as to not pre-load the pads at an angle, adding brake fluid, checking the brakes, and putting the wheel pants on takes a good 3 1/2 to 4 hours.  Muffler: Removing the cowling is part of the annual.  But, removing and replacing the muffler, cleaning up the risers, R&R SCAT for cabin heat/carb heat as required, possibly new gaskets, easily 2 hours.  Even without doing anything but R&R a muffler, that's an hour or two.  So, going into the annual I'd be looking at 2 to 3 hours or so (he said it  was done in a day) for the annual.  That's not going to happen for $650.  

Thanks again,

Gary

From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 1:15:15 PM

Subject: Re: Cost of annual



            Gary Vogt wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		           Those are some pretty cheap annuals.  Linn, I think he said "He charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time."  My Pre-Purchase inspection runs $450.  

   

   

   When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.  At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.  

   

   

   I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.  I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a glance.  When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6 hours going through the logs verifying dates and times.  The data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made.  I've seen logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what showed due to transposing numbers.  If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.  I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.

   

 	
 The first inspection was more ..... because he had to verify that all the ADs had been complied with .... and annotated the entries with data that was missing.  That included looking at ALL the ADs.  Now he just looks for reecent ones.

  	  Quote: 	
		        Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily available at a glance.  I mean, really, just how important is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to look for trends?  Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).

   

 	
 I keep all the 'notes' with squawks and the compression checks ..... and usually just compare data with last years.  Keeping all the data .... and keeping it current probably should be a extra charge .... you can cut the hours of the inspection by that time spent pounding keys.

  	  Quote: 	
		        I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates).  I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates).  Then to $85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress.   $90/hr in 2005.  Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.  Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual.  My annuals typically take 16 to 18 hours.

   

 	
 With me removing all the stuff on the checklist, putting it all back, and fixing squawks, I probably have that much time spent.  But I spend a lot of time looking for tools which you probably don't do.  You're probably more thorough.

  	  Quote: 	
		        After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they were my own.

   

 	
 I think you've hit the biggest problem.  We treat our own equipment better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the pride or reputation of a job well done.

  	  Quote: 	
		          I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.

   

 	
 Most owners would rather pay the minimum to keep the airplane airworthy and, hopefully, keep their butt safe for a year.  Only when they go to sell it do they find out that it's still 'pay me now or pay me later'.

  	  Quote: 	
		          Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?

   

 	
 When the filter starts to turn brown and before it crumbles .... I replace it.  A quick tug tells me whether it needs it or not.  I've never replaced one that was dirty .... just aged.  I do repack bearings every other year, and replace oil filters every other change.  Lately I don't fly as much as I did, so it's usually one filter a year.  I spend a lot of time on corrosion control .... mostly the hardware ..... and painting places that need it.   	  Quote: 	
		        

   

   Owner assisted annuals:  I charge for the hours I spend working on the plane.  Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing that?" constitutes owner assisting.  An owner assisted annual that uses up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours.  At the other end of the spectrum is Bobby:  He maintains his plane throughout the year.  When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is changed.  His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole plane.

   

 	
 I'm pretty much like Bobby.  Depending on whether the airplane is kept hangared or tied down, I don't see much need to do a complete, maxed out, inspection every year.  I feel that removing every cover/tip/interior .... does more damage than I find.  But, I watch my AI do the inspection, I fix the squawks, and he looks at the work I did when he fills out the logs.  Remember that I have the tools and knowledge (mostly) from building airplanes.

 

 The biggest difference between you and I is that he comes to my hangar which I pay the rent on.  I don't figure how much of the 'rent' (overhead) goes toward the annual, and I'm not trying to make a living wrenching.  I work on MY stuff cheap!!!   I don't know how you guys do it.  My AI works 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and support his family.  Other people pay $400 for an assisted annual, twice that (or more) for one he does by himself.

 Linn

  	  Quote: 	
		        

   

   The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr.  Bob, Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?

   

   

   Thanks for your input, Team.

   

          	  Quote: 	
		  





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rdp123(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Gary, you must remember like Cliff noted some of these mechanics are not making a living from their work but are retired and just having fun keeping occupied.  The guy that did my annual gets some hefty retirement money form is long career in the aerospace industry. 

He only works on one plane at a time and has no telephone in his hangar and since Torrance a closed airport no visitors.  Without any distractions he is very efficient but will not take any big jobs.  Then we must fly to Auburn etc.



Rick

 

On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Gary Vogt wrote:

[quote]"I think you've hit the biggest problem.  We treat our own equipment better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the pride or reputation of a job well done."

This is a big issue for me.  There are times when I think about cutting corners and then I remind myself of all the mechanics I slam for doing shitty work.  Then I swear.   Then I do it the way it should be done.

The only mechanic to call me about my work is Bill Scott.  To his credit, I've worked on his planes and his workmanship is obsessive compulsive when it comes to having each and every piece that came with the plane from the factory exactly where it should be.  His issue with me is not replacing the scraper on the wheel pant when installing the fiberglass wheel pants.  I don't like them.  He also called and gave me hell for signing off a Cheetah 10 years ago (this was a recent call) that had had a larger oil cooler installed and the owner didn't have an STC or Field Approval on the installation.  To be honest, I don't even remember the plane.  HOWEVER, if I did recognize it had a larger oil cooler and the installation was up to my standards, I would have signed it off anyway, paperwork or no paperwork.  The plane never should have left the factory with that tiny oil cooler.

========================

     "I'm not so sure.  I developed a scenario when I was brokering airplanes ..... you see two guys on the ramp (buyer and seller), and they're looking at the SAME airplane."

About my inspection checklist . . .  have you ever gone through logbooks?   



Reading poor hand writing, vague entries, spending hours upon hours looking for when the such and such an AD was done or a part was changed/overhauled is a pain-in-the-ass.  The person that buys my plane will have a permanent record of every item ever done to the plane in an easy to read format.  I bought my plane in 2004.  I have filled two (5) year records.  Every hour of work is documented.  Modifications, repairs, and maintenance done between overhauls are also recorded.  Bill Kelly also has a very complete record of maintenance and repair.  Trust me, when it comes time to sell, the buyer won't need more than 15 minutes to see the results of 10 years of compression tests and make up his mind for himself what condition the engine is in.  The same goes for the rest of plane

 . . . .  but then, I'm sure there are those owners out there that just don't care one way or the other.  As long as the cost of ownership is cheap, that's all that matters.  

========================

Claude wrote: "When I see the cost of annual inspections here and on the Gang, I cringe. No way could I afford my airplane if I had to cough up 4-5 G every year just for an annual. "   I had to smile.  First, I don't think I could afford $4,000-$5,000 annuals is I had to pay that every year.  Second, the annuals I do on worst case scenarios, planes that have been ignored for many years, are more like on particular example I have, $10,000 the first year, $7,000 the second, $3,000 the third, and $1500 to $2000 since then.  Corl's plane, the $80,000 Cheetah, gets by with a minimum amount of work during an annual.  It will need to have the wheel bearing packed this year, but that's about it.  

========================

Bob, I need to raise my rates!

========================

Thanks for all your input, Team.  This economy is affecting us all.  I've thought about moving to Lake Almanor, writing action novels, and say I've had enough.  Maybe next year.  Until then, I'm going to think about the whole annuals thing.  I want to find away to include those who are used to $300 annuals and not scare them away with $1500 annuals.  

Grumman owners like Ric, who can get an annual done for $650 including new brakes and muffler replacement, without flying 2 1/2 hours to Auburn, well, I could never compete with that.  Removing wheel pants, replacing brake linings, cleaning up and lubricating the guide pins, bending the brake lines into the right shape so as to not pre-load the pads at an angle, adding brake fluid, checking the brakes, and putting the wheel pants on takes a good 3 1/2 to 4 hours.  Muffler: Removing the cowling is part of the annual.  But, removing and replacing the muffler, cleaning up the risers, R&R SCAT for cabin heat/carb heat as required, possibly new gaskets, easily 2 hours.  Even without doing anything but R&R a muffler, that's an hour or two.  So, going into the annual I'd be looking at 2 to 3 hours or so (he said it was done in a day) for the annual.  That's not going to happen for $650.  

Thanks again,

Gary

From: Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Tue, June 22, 2010 1:15:15 PM

Subject: Re: Cost of annual



Gary Vogt wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  Those are some pretty cheap annuals.  Linn, I think he said "He charges me $300 for 10 hours of inspection time."  My Pre-Purchase inspection runs $450.  

When I started AuCountry Aviation in 1997, I was charging $50 an hour.  At the time, the local avionics shop was $50/hr.  

I use a 14 page checklist that keeps 5 years of inspections in view.  I can tell you when and why a wire was changed, a light was changed, how many hours on the brakes at each annual, when the last fuel selector valve overhaul was done last, notes as to serial numbers on major parts, times on mags, vacuum pumps, and hundreds of other items, all at a glance.  When I get a plane for the first time, I may spend up to 6 hours going through the logs verifying dates and times.  The data on my annuals is about as correct as can be made.  I've seen logbooks so fucked up that the plane actually had over 200 hrs less than what showed due to transposing numbers.  If I'm doing a plane for the first time, it takes about 24 hours to thoroughly go through the plane; I charge for 18 hrs.  I make it up over the next few years since I now know the plane.



	
The first inspection was more ..... because he had to verify that all the ADs had been complied with .... and annotated the entries with data that was missing.  That included looking at ALL the ADs.  Now he just looks for reecent ones.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Maybe no one really gives a shit that all that information is tracked and readily available at a glance.  I mean, really, just how important is it to be able to look at just two pages and see 10 years worth of compression tests to look for trends?  Based on a few of the logbooks I've reviewed, some don't even show compression checks (10 years of annuals with no compression checks).



	
I keep all the 'notes' with squawks and the compression checks ..... and usually just compare data with last years.  Keeping all the data ..... and keeping it current probably should be a extra charge .... you can cut the hours of the inspection by that time spent pounding keys.

 	  Quote: 	
		  I raised my rates in 1999 to $60/hr (following the avionics shops rates).  I went to $75/hr in 2001 (again following his rates).  Then to $85/hr in 2003; all the time, I had 8 planes in progress.   $90/hr in 2005.  Returning customers were getting a 20% break on their bill.  Last year I went to a flat rate of $1500 for the annual.  My annuals typically take 16 to 18 hours.



	
With me removing all the stuff on the checklist, putting it all back, and fixing squawks, I probably have that much time spent.  But I spend a lot of time looking for tools which you probably don't do.  You're probably more thorough.

 	  Quote: 	
		  After reading what I just wrote, it occurred to me that I'm doing this whole maintenance thing wrong.  I've been treating these planes like they were my own.



	
I think you've hit the biggest problem.  We treat our own equipment better than others will ..... but they don't have to worry about the pride or reputation of a job well done.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've been treating these planes as if the owners were involved and concerned about the quality of maintenance.



	
Most owners would rather pay the minimum to keep the airplane airworthy and, hopefully, keep their butt safe for a year.  Only when they go to sell it do they find out that it's still 'pay me now or pay me later'.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Perhaps if I just expanded my Pre-Purchase inspection a bit I could use it for annuals.  I could easily do a basic annual in 8 hours for $650.  Why bother with details like how many hours there are on vacuum filters and rudder springs or repacking wheel bearings every other year?



	
When the filter starts to turn brown and before it crumbles .... I replace it.  A quick tug tells me whether it needs it or not.  I've never replaced one that was dirty .... just aged.  I do repack bearings every other year, and replace oil filters every other change.  Lately I don't fly as much as I did, so it's usually one filter a year.  I spend a lot of time on corrosion control .... mostly the hardware ..... and painting places that need it.  	  Quote: 	
		  



Owner assisted annuals:  I charge for the hours I spend working on the plane.  Some owners think standing around and asking, "Why are you doing that?" constitutes owner assisting.  An owner assisted annual that uses up 24 hours of my time gets charged for 24 hours.  At the other end of the spectrum is Bobby:  He maintains his plane throughout the year.  When he brings his plane in for an owner assisted annual, the wheel pants are off, the seats (except pilot's) are out, and the oil is changed.  His annuals take less than 8 hours and we go though the whole plane.



	
I'm pretty much like Bobby.  Depending on whether the airplane is kept hangared or tied down, I don't see much need to do a complete, maxed out, inspection every year.  I feel that removing every cover/tip/interior .... does more damage than I find.  But, I watch my AI do the inspection, I fix the squawks, and he looks at the work I did when he fills out the logs.  Remember that I have the tools and knowledge (mostly) from building airplanes.



The biggest difference between you and I is that he comes to my hangar which I pay the rent on.  I don't figure how much of the 'rent' (overhead) goes toward the annual, and I'm not trying to make a living wrenching.  I work on MY stuff cheap!!!   I don't know how you guys do it.  My AI works 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and support his family.  Other people pay $400 for an assisted annual, twice that (or more) for one he does by himself.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		  



The 'other' maintenance shop here in Auburn charges $120/hr.  Bob, Cliff, Garner, what do you charge per hour?

Thanks for your input, Team.



 	  Quote: 	
		  





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[b]

lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Finally back from Asia and can catch up on the posts...



The cost of an annual is not as critical in my eyes as the number of 

hours a mechanic has needed to

perform it and the quality of the effort.  Whether a mechanic charges 

$10.00/hr or $200.00/hr is dependent upon the

speicifics of the mechanic, his/her business model, etc.  If someone got 

an annual for $400.00 and it took

18 hours to complete (and the work as defined in the Maintenance Manual 

was actually performed),

there is nothing wrong with that.  If you had an annual that also took 

18 hours to complete and it cost

you $3000.00, that's OK too as long as you the quality of the work is 

equivalent.



All owners are different in what their level of expectations are, what 

level of quality is acceptable, and

how much money they have to spend on their flying hobby.  My take is 

that I want quality.  Plain and

simple, and if it cost me $5,000 to get it so be it.  The last place I 

want to be is at 5K cruising along and have

something fail due to shoddy workmanship.  Last time I looked, there is 

no breakdown lane to pull over and

call the tow truck when flying.



I was asked by a local here in SoCal why I fly 3.5 hours to AUN for my 

annuals and quality is the simple

answer.  I see the results of a "quality" annual vice what I used to get 

and it justifies the extra expense of ferrying

up to AUN (not all that bad as it is a nice flight up the foothills of 

the Sierra's).



So for those people that Gary and other's have had to deal with looking 

for a "quickie, cheap, just get it signed off annual"

should simply accept the fact that Gary and other guru's out there just 

don't work that way and need to

go elsewhere.



Keep up the good work Gary and dont ever lower your standards!

Lawrence Massaro

N9186M   '92 AG-5B

KRNM

teamgrumman(at)YAHOO.COM
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:36 am Post subject: Cost of annual

Hey Larry,

Welcome back.  I've tried to cut corners.  Then, I look at it and say, "If someone else sees this . . . . . "  

Short story:

  For Christmas 1996 I bought a 78 Cheetah for $28,000 because it had a lot of stuff my 77 Cheetah didn't.  Both planes had about the same total time.  Problem was, I really liked my Cheetah.  The thought of changing wings (to get the long range tanks), robbing the 78 of all of it's avionics and autopilot, and . . . . just became too overwhelming.  I flew the 78 off and on.  It flew nice.  Then, I discovered it had a bad cam.  So, time for overhaul.  Over the next few months, I went through the whole plane and installed stuff like  an Argus 3000 moving map, GPS, new panel, interior, carpets, etc.  With the newly overhauled engine, it was a sweet plane.  One of the F-16 test pilots I worked with really wanted it.  I sold it to him for $48,000 about 2 years after I bought it.  Geoff Hickey has that plane now.  I think he's pretty happy with it.  

Project X:  As soon as the Cheetah in my hangar is finished, today hopefully, I'm putting 626 into the corner to get the new nose gear torque tube.  I've talked to Dave about the new inlet.  He says it's a no brainer.  I've heard that before.  But, Project X is next.

Gary



From: Lawrence Massaro  <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com>

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Fri, June 25, 2010 10:38:25 AM

Subject: Re:  Cost of annual



 --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Lawrence Massaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>



Finally back from Asia and can catch up on the posts...



The cost of an annual is not as critical in my eyes as the number of hours a mechanic has needed to

perform it and the quality of the effort.  Whether a mechanic charges $10.00/hr or $200.00/hr is dependent upon the

speicifics of the mechanic, his/her business model, etc.  If someone got an annual for $400.00 and it took

18 hours to complete (and the work as defined in the Maintenance Manual was actually performed),

there is nothing wrong with that.  If you had an annual that also took 18 hours to complete and it cost

you $3000.00, that's OK too as long as you the quality of the work is equivalent.



All owners are different in what their level of expectations are, what level of  quality is acceptable, and

how much money they have to spend on their flying hobby.  My take is that I want quality.  Plain and

simple, and if it cost me $5,000 to get it so be it.  The last place I want to be is at 5K cruising along and have

something fail due to shoddy workmanship.  Last time I looked, there is no breakdown lane to pull over and

call the tow truck when flying.



I was asked by a local here in SoCal why I fly 3.5 hours to AUN for my annuals and quality is the simple

answer.  I see the results of a "quality" annual vice what I used to get and it justifies the extra expense of ferrying

up to AUN (not all that bad as it is a nice flight up the foothills of the Sierra's).



So for those people that Gary and other's have had to deal with looking for a "quickie, cheap, just get it signed off annual"

should simply accept the fact that Gary and other guru's out there just don't work that   



         [quote][b]

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