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Latex paint (again???!!!!)

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GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

Hey! I need to cover my Kolb. I am new to aircraft, particularly Kolbs. I can’t learn to fly in this one till I get it recovered.  

   

I have been researching the different covering systems. I have also been spending a lot of time in the archives here. We have had a lot of posts on the latex house paint idea. While I haven’t sensed a consensus on it, I haven’t yet read a well-constructed rebuttal either.  

   

One more time, would ya’ll give me your opinion on this ‘system’?  

   

Also- how would I go about using it? It sounds like I would buy the aircraft Dacron from whomever, then glue it on with whatever (suggestions here?) then shrink it like normal. Then next it seems like folks just apply two or more coats of a good white (Titanium dioxide) latex house paint and call it good. Yes, I know many people have used black paint first with white on top of that.  

   

Do you suppose I would have trouble getting approved with this, at my next airworthiness inspection? Is it ‘legal’? Or is it up to the whim of the inspector?  

   

Thanks!  

GeoB  

   

       [quote][b]

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:37 am Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

George, Legality. It's your experiment, you can do as you want. Cover it with toilet tissue if you want (extreme humorous example).Your description of the latex "system" is exactly the problem with it. All evidence of the relative "goodness" of latex are entirely anecdotal. No one has documented how well the "system" works to protect the polyester fabric from ultraviolet radiation, to my knowledge, which is the only function (okay, sealing the fabric is a function, too) for which a coating is used. 

 Nothing sticks to polyester, period. The Polyfiber system works by using Polybrush, a vinyl compound to encapsulate the fabric (incidentally, the exact same fabric is used for peel ply in composite structures for exactly this reason, the epoxy won't stick to it) and the following coatings of Poly Spray, which contains aluminum powder to protect the fabric from said UV uses the same solvent and reducers as the Polybrush so that it melts into the Poly Brush, and Poly Tone, the color coat to make the job purty. :-} Same solvent, same method of attachment to previous layers. 

 How well does the PolyFiber system, an honest to God real system, work? The fellow who lives across the runway from me has a Cub that was covered 25 years ago using the PolyFiber system. It looks as good as if it were done last week and passes every annual slick as a whistle. The same for the A & P's T-craft next door. Looks like a museum piece after 7 years.

 Repairability: PolyFiber has detailed instructions for fixing everything from the inevitable hangar rash to major airframe damage. Latex, again, who knows. 

Those are some of the cons to the use of latex which is all done by myth, legend and rumor. 

 Incidentally, again, I owned a Minimax for a couple of years that used the latex system. I kept it hangared at all times unless I was flying it. I fixed one small abrasion hole with adhesive backed insignia cloth, made a log book entry of the repair and promptly sold it.

 Again, your experiment, do as you wish.

Beauford's Rule.

Rick Girard

LSARM 3178721

Rick Girard



On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:25 PM, George Bearden <gab16(at)sbcglobal.net (gab16(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

 [quote]             

Hey! I need to cover my Kolb. I am new to aircraft, particularly Kolbs. I can’t learn to fly in this one till I get it recovered.  

   

I have been researching the different covering systems. I have also been spending a lot of time in the archives here. We have had a lot of posts on the latex house paint idea. While I haven’t sensed a consensus on it, I haven’t yet read a well-constructed rebuttal either.  

   

One more time, would ya’ll give me your opinion on this ‘system’?  

   

Also- how would I go about using it? It sounds like I would buy the aircraft Dacron from whomever, then glue it on with whatever (suggestions here?) then shrink it like normal. Then next it seems like folks just apply two or more coats of a good white (Titanium dioxide) latex house paint and call it good. Yes, I know many people have used black paint first with white on top of that.  

   

Do you suppose I would have trouble getting approved with this, at my next airworthiness inspection? Is it ‘legal’? Or is it up to the whim of the inspector?  

   

Thanks!  

GeoB  

   

        	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

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Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I know of a Firestar that was painted with latex house paint. It's still doing well with no peeling after 12 years. I believe there are several aircraft that have been painted the same way. My Firestar tail was painted with automotive paint and it's still as good as the polytone painted on the wings in which I rolled on with a paint roller.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I have used vinyl spray can paint on small non critical areas like the cabin fabric with excellent results.

Of course it was white and easy to match.

BB

On 14, Aug 2010, at 11:29 AM, Ralph B wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I know of a Firestar that was painted with latex house paint. It's still doing well with no peeling after 12 years. I believe there are several aircraft that have been painted the same way. My Firestar tail was painted with automotive paint and it's still as good as the polytone painted on the wings in which I rolled on with a paint roller.

 

 Ralph

 

 --------

 Ralph B

 Original Firestar 447

 N91493 E-AB

 1000 hours

 23 years flying it

 Kolbra 912UL

 N20386

 2 years flying it

 120 hrs

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308783#308783

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I have used vinyl spray can paint on small non critical areas like the 

cabin fabric with excellent results.

Of course it was white and easy to match.

BB

Bob B/Gang:



I go the certified route for fabric and installation.  Makes me feel a 

little more confident I will make it back home safely.



Little holes get stickers or packing tape, except on the wings, then I go 

ahead and do approved fabric repair.



My fabric has been on the MKIII for 19 years/3,000.0+ hours, except the left 

wing, aileron, flap, and upper and lower vertical stabilizers.  I have some 

paint cracks (aerothane) on the back side of some of the leading edge tubes 

on the tail section caused by bending (vibration from the prop), but is 

still in good shape and serviceable for a few more years.



Finally got some rain at hauck's holler and Gantt International Airport. 

The airstrip grew a foot this morning.  



Love to mow grass and bush hog after a good rain.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I discarded the original slip-on sails of my Maxair Hummer in 1994, recovered it with Ceconite and painted it with Latex. Why, what are the advantages? It is typically lighter in weight than the other systems. Durability is good, I saw a picture of my old Hummer on Youtube last week, it is still going strong in NC with the same covering after 16 years.  If you damage it, MEK dissolves the latex enough to reattach or glue on fabric patches. Best reason, it is cheap.



To use it, you have to thin the latex enough for your first coat that it will penetrate and encapsulate the fabric like Polybrush does, or like nitrate dope does. Contrary to some opinions, nitrate dope works on dacron fabric to penetrate and encapsulate it, that is why the FAA approves it,  check out the Certified Coatings or Randolph section of the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Stits is good, but other methods are approved and work well also.



You still have to apply all your tapes to the fabric with nitrate or Poly-Brush, and I used Certified Coatings Sure-Seam fabric cement to attach the fabric to the airframe, and Certified Coatings blue-tinted nitrate to attach the coverings to each other at the overlap and similar places. 



I am in the last stages of painting the FSII that I am rebuilding, it is covered with Ceconite and painted with latex for a cost of $180 for the latex purchased locally, $150 for 2 gallons of nitrate plus 2 quarts of fabric cement plus shipping. 



Of all the systems I have done, I like using Randolph & Certified Coatings best because they dry the fastest, Stits second, and latex third in terms of ease, latex is somewhat of a pain, because you have to wait a long time to mask off and shoot the trim coats, it is thick and you need a special gun, and it takes several days to harden up between colors so you can't mask it off as quickly as with the others. In terms of cost, latex wins hands down, Certified Coatings and Randolph second, and Stits last.



I have a fabric sample of Dacron that was painted with latex and left out in the sun for several years, the paint still sticks good and the fabric beneath it is still good.



So to answer your question, if cost is very important, go with latex and get a decent HVLP spray gun to shoot it with. If you can afford to step up a notch but cost is still important, go with Certified Coatings or Randolph. If cost is no object, go with Stits, it is pretty much the Acura of Kolb-style paint systems.



As far as how to do it - attach the dacron of your choice to the airframe with any dacron-approved fabric cement and then dope the tapes on using either Poly-brush or any nitrate dope. Prepare it just like you were planning to use Stits coatings, except that you quit when you get to the open areas.



I then spray the upper surfaces, vertical surfaces, and fuselage with black, thinned with with a mix of polypropylene glycol and water, AKA windshield washer fluid so that the paint is thinned and watery, it has to penetrate and encapsulate the fabric. If it runs, just blot it carefully with a paper towel. Don't let it drip through to the opposite side, that is too much. Lay the fuselage over so that the paint won't run on the vertical surfaces. Why black? It blocks out all light, and presumably the UV as well. The Hummer was black, and 16 years later...



Then lay a thicker coat or two on to seal the weave and make it look nice, let it dry for a couple days so the paint won't soften and stick to your sawhorses, and then shoot the lighter of your unmasked color coats, you may want to shoot a coat of white first to make the color pop out nice, I know I will. Let it dry for at least a week and then mask it off and shoot your darker colors. For your final coats use Latex X-tender instead of windshield washer fluid, it is clear instead of blue, & it makes the paint flow out and gives it more gloss. Your local paint store probably sells it.



One thing to keep in mind: never let two latex painted surfaces lay on each other, or you will come back later and find that they have glued themselves together, and when you pull them apart, you will mess something up. 



Bottom line, latex is an acceptable system, but it has it's limitations and quirks. If cost and light weight were not priorities, I would be using aircraft dope instead and not fooling with it and I would already be done instead of having to wait to shoot the final coats next week. (On the other hand, it has been in the 90's for weeks, and I didn't have to fool with retarder this time to keep it from spiderwebbing on me like the Stits I used to paint the MKIII with did. Hmmm....)



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:26 am Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

Richard, your recommended source or brand of latex is....?



Regarding nitrate.  It has a bonding strength that is hard to beat.  The original airplane glue.

The original fabric cement was  just a thick version of nitrate.  Almost impossible to peel off.

Even planes that were coated with butyrate (sorta like latex) would be preferably coated first with nitrate for

adhesion and for surface tape attachment.  Where nitrate got a bad rap was when it was coated

on too thick as a color coat and eventually showed flex cracks and "ringworm".

BB



On 14, Aug 2010, at 2:37 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I discarded the original slip-on sails of my Maxair Hummer in 1994, recovered it with Ceconite and painted it with Latex. Why, what are the advantages? It is typically lighter in weight than the other systems. Durability is good, I saw a picture of my old Hummer on Youtube last week, it is still going strong in NC with the same covering after 16 years.  If you damage it, MEK dissolves the latex enough to reattach or glue on fabric patches. Best reason, it is cheap.

 

 To use it, you have to thin the latex enough for your first coat that it will penetrate and encapsulate the fabric like Polybrush does, or like nitrate dope does. Contrary to some opinions, nitrate dope works on dacron fabric to penetrate and encapsulate it, that is why the FAA approves it,  check out the Certified Coatings or Randolph section of the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Stits is good, but other methods are approved and work well also.

 

 You still have to apply all your tapes to the fabric with nitrate or Poly-Brush, and I used Certified Coatings Sure-Seam fabric cement to attach the fabric to the airframe, and Certified Coatings blue-tinted nitrate to attach the coverings to each other at the overlap and similar places. 

 

 I am in the last stages of painting the FSII that I am rebuilding, it is covered with Ceconite and painted with latex for a cost of $180 for the latex purchased locally, $150 for 2 gallons of nitrate plus 2 quarts of fabric cement plus shipping. 

 

 Of all the systems I have done, I like using Randolph & Certified Coatings best because they dry the fastest, Stits second, and latex third in terms of ease, latex is somewhat of a pain, because you have to wait a long time to mask off and shoot the trim coats, it is thick and you need a special gun, and it takes several days to harden up between colors so you can't mask it off as quickly as with the others. In terms of cost, latex wins hands down, Certified Coatings and Randolph second, and Stits last.

 

 I have a fabric sample of Dacron that was painted with latex and left out in the sun for several years, the paint still sticks good and the fabric beneath it is still good.

 

 So to answer your question, if cost is very important, go with latex and get a decent HVLP spray gun to shoot it with. If you can afford to step up a notch but cost is still important, go with Certified Coatings or Randolph. If cost is no object, go with Stits, it is pretty much the Acura of Kolb-style paint systems.

 

 As far as how to do it - attach the dacron of your choice to the airframe with any dacron-approved fabric cement and then dope the tapes on using either Poly-brush or any nitrate dope. Prepare it just like you were planning to use Stits coatings, except that you quit when you get to the open areas.

 

 I then spray the upper surfaces, vertical surfaces, and fuselage with black, thinned with with a mix of polypropylene glycol and water, AKA windshield washer fluid so that the paint is thinned and watery, it has to penetrate and encapsulate the fabric. If it runs, just blot it carefully with a paper towel. Don't let it drip through to the opposite side, that is too much. Lay the fuselage over so that the paint won't run on the vertical surfaces. Why black? It blocks out all light, and presumably the UV as well. The Hummer was black, and 16 years later...

 

 Then lay a thicker coat or two on to seal the weave and make it look nice, let it dry for a couple days so the paint won't soften and stick to your sawhorses, and then shoot the lighter of your unmasked color coats, you may want to shoot a coat of white first to make the color pop out nice, I know I will. Let it dry for at least a week and then mask it off and shoot your darker colors. For your final coats use Latex X-tender instead of windshield washer fluid, it is clear instead of blue, & it makes the paint flow out and gives it more gloss. Your local paint store probably sells it.

 

 One thing to keep in mind: never let two latex painted surfaces lay on each other, or you will come back later and find that they have glued themselves together, and when you pull them apart, you will mess something up. 

 

 Bottom line, latex is an acceptable system, but it has it's limitations and quirks. If cost and light weight were not priorities, I would be using aircraft dope instead and not fooling with it and I would already be done instead of having to wait to shoot the final coats next week. (On the other hand, it has been in the 90's for weeks, and I didn't have to fool with retarder this time to keep it from spiderwebbing on me like the Stits I used to paint the MKIII with did. Hmmm....)

 

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308808#308808

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

Thanks for the feedback everybody! I'm all ears for more info.



> It is typically lighter in weight than the other systems. 

> Durability is good,  B

> Best reason, it is cheap.



The lightness and cost attracted me to the idea. But I am not committed to it- I am seeking info and ppl's stories on the topic.



One feller emailed me private, and I will keep his privacy, but answer here.



I certainly appreciate the info. I don't mind dying in some non-specific, remote point in the future, as long as I'm not there at the time, but I want to play with my toys for a while first. Thanks.



> it sounds like someone's about to jump into something



I am a cautious person. I do NOT jump into things. I am not a proponent of the latex covering, I am merely researching at this point. I am mindful of some tragic deaths attributed to failure of the fabric. I pay VERY close attention to these.



I know this can be a contentious issue but where else can I turn?



> but it *must* be done correctly, using all the adhesives, chemicals, procedures, etc that are designed to be used together



I understand why this is necessary. On the other hand, latex may someday be considered a 'system'. It *must* be put down on a *clean* surface before any other layer, as my reading directs. Latex does not form a chemical bond with the fabric and/or other layers (it has been said). It is a mechanical bond as the latex permeates the fabric and 'wraps around' the fibers. But maybe this is all bogus, I don't know yet.



This issue is technically different than the auto paint top-coat controversy which has also been around a while. Each layer of the certified systems must bonded to one below it. I have been told that these systems use the same solvent(s) and that each successive layer sort of merges with the last. The solvents and adhesives are designed to work with the materials also.



The way I see it, so far, is that with the fabric glued on and stretched, the only real issues for a doping/sealing/UV are 1) being compatible with the fabric, not 'dissolving it', 2) sealing the fabric and 3) protecting it from UV and 4) giving some degree of mechanical protection. According to GeoB anyway.



Just playing the devil's advocate.



GeoB

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I understand why this is necessary. On the other hand, latex may  someday be considered a 'system'. It *must* be put down on a *clean* surface  before any other layer, as my reading directs. Latex does not form a chemical  bond with the fabric and/or other layers (it has been said). It is a mechanical  bond as the latex permeates the fabric and 'wraps around' the fibers. But maybe  this is all bogus, I don't know yet.

  

 Regarding nitrate.  It has a bonding strength that is hard to  beat.  The original airplane glue.

The original fabric cement was   just a thick version of nitrate.  Almost impossible to peel off.

Even  planes that were coated with butyrate (sorta like latex) would be preferably  coated first with nitrate for

adhesion and for surface tape attachment.   Where nitrate got a bad rap was when it was coated

on too thick as a color  coat and eventually showed flex cracks and "ringworm".

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 okkkkk    if the latex wraps around  the fibers...   but first the    "quoted from another  post"    the nitrate glue has already encapsulated the  fibers...  what is there for the latex to adhere to?????

  

    even though the latex may work for  years.....  but  until it has faa approval....  I will not  use it and stick to a system that does...   when watching the  Polly fiber video,   some of the butyrate dope  as well as other  approved system was flammable...  and the Polly fiber system was not.   

  

 my choice was easy.   a few extra  dollars,,  and I am sure.

  

 Boyd   young   mkIII

   [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

How about tar and feathers?

do not archive

On 14, Aug 2010, at 5:44 PM, GeoB wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Thanks for the feedback everybody! I'm all ears for more info.

> It is typically lighter in weight than the other systems. 

> Durability is good,  B

> Best reason, it is cheap.

 The lightness and cost attracted me to the idea. But I am not committed to it- I am seeking info and ppl's stories on the topic.

 One feller emailed me private, and I will keep his privacy, but answer here.

 I certainly appreciate the info. I don't mind dying in some non-specific, remote point in the future, as long as I'm not there at the time, but I want to play with my toys for a while first. Thanks.

> it sounds like someone's about to jump into something

 I am a cautious person. I do NOT jump into things. I am not a proponent of the latex covering, I am merely researching at this point. I am mindful of some tragic deaths attributed to failure of the fabric. I pay VERY close attention to these.

 I know this can be a contentious issue but where else can I turn?

> but it *must* be done correctly, using all the adhesives, chemicals, procedures, etc that are designed to be used together

 I understand why this is necessary. On the other hand, latex may someday be considered a 'system'. It *must* be put down on a *clean* surface before any other layer, as my reading directs. Latex does not form a chemical bond with the fabric and/or other layers (it has been said). It is a mechanical bond as the latex permeates the fabric and 'wraps around' the fibers. But maybe this is all bogus, I don't know yet.

 This issue is technically different than the auto paint top-coat controversy which has also been around a while. Each layer of the certified systems must bonded to one below it. I have been told that these systems use the same solvent(s) and that each successive layer sort of merges with the last. The solvents and adhesives are designed to work with the materials also.

 The way I see it, so far, is that with the fabric glued on and stretched, the only real issues for a doping/sealing/UV are 1) being compatible with the fabric, not 'dissolving it', 2) sealing the fabric and 3) protecting it from UV and 4) giving some degree of mechanical protection. According to GeoB anyway.

 Just playing the devil's advocate.

 GeoB

 --------

 GeoB

 &quot;Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors&quot;

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308832#308832

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

Several good questions - The latex seems to stick to the nitrate covered fabric just like latex paint sticks to your house - pretty darn well. 



And yes - nitrate burns just dandy, even better than butyrate. 



Brands? I like Sherwin-Williams and Sears Weatherbeater, but if you go with Lowe's premium stuff, it works fine too.



And yes, I agree that using one proven system is the best way to get predictable results. But GeoB was asking for an opinion and a functional technique, and that is what I tried to give him. Anyway, we are building experimental airplanes, and some of us enjoy experimenting. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

> Anyway, we are building experimental airplanes, and some of us enjoy experimenting. 



I don't think I would describe myself to someone as an experimenter. Oh, I always change things and (technically) customize my ride- but generally I have researched things deeply enough that it doesn't seem like an experiment to me when I do it. I have been building my 4x4 for the last 14 years. Oh, it has been my Daily Driver for this period too. I have another round of mods for it, and a new engine. It is down now as I make the mods. It, and most of my other projects have turned out very well. Far better than I ever hoped when I started.



I *know* aviation is now a very conservative slice of society, yet in even the farthest-out cutting-edge forums I find criticism of people who ask questions or want to try new things.



I appreciate folks being concerned about me- or maybe the sport- but I wish they would flesh out their warnings with more details. Stuff like "You'll die if you don't do things the way it has always been done!" isn't as useful as saying, "If your glue fails you can lose the entire fabric from your wing in an instant". I doubt any of us in this sport isn't aware that we can die. I can stay at home and die too. I could quit 4x4ing on dangerous terrrain, I could quit riding motorcycles- after hundreds of thousands of miles. I have risked my life for years in one of the most dangerous professions in this country and I am accustomed to assessing personal risk.

_________________
GeoB

"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

Richard, I should have known from the quality of the work you show on other projects that if anyone would have something close to a 'system'  for latex you'd be the one.The sample you have left UV exposed, have you done the 56 lb test on a piece from it. That would be the real deal in proving long term survivability.

 



Rick Girard

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

  

 I discarded the original slip-on sails of my Maxair Hummer in 1994, recovered it with Ceconite and painted it with Latex. Why, what are the advantages? It is typically lighter in weight than the other systems. Durability is good, I saw a picture of my old Hummer on Youtube last week, it is still going strong in NC with the same covering after 16 years.  If you damage it, MEK dissolves the latex enough to reattach or glue on fabric patches. Best reason, it is cheap.

  

 To use it, you have to thin the latex enough for your first coat that it will penetrate and encapsulate the fabric like Polybrush does, or like nitrate dope does. Contrary to some opinions, nitrate dope works on dacron fabric to penetrate and encapsulate it, that is why the FAA approves it,  check out the Certified Coatings or Randolph section of the Aircraft Spruce catalog. Stits is good, but other methods are approved and work well also.

  

 You still have to apply all your tapes to the fabric with nitrate or Poly-Brush, and I used Certified Coatings Sure-Seam fabric cement to attach the fabric to the airframe, and Certified Coatings blue-tinted nitrate to attach the coverings to each other at the overlap and similar places.

  

 I am in the last stages of painting the FSII that I am rebuilding, it is covered with Ceconite and painted with latex for a cost of $180 for the latex purchased locally, $150 for 2 gallons of nitrate plus 2 quarts of fabric cement plus shipping.

  

 Of all the systems I have done, I like using Randolph & Certified Coatings best because they dry the fastest, Stits second, and latex third in terms of ease, latex is somewhat of a pain, because you have to wait a long time to mask off and shoot the trim coats, it is thick and you need a special gun, and it takes several days to harden up between colors so you can't mask it off as quickly as with the others. In terms of cost, latex wins hands down, Certified Coatings and Randolph second, and Stits last.

  

 I have a fabric sample of Dacron that was painted with latex and left out in the sun for several years, the paint still sticks good and the fabric beneath it is still good.

 

 So to answer your question, if cost is very important, go with latex and get a decent HVLP spray gun to shoot it with. If you can afford to step up a notch but cost is still important, go with Certified Coatings or Randolph. If cost is no object, go with Stits, it is pretty much the Acura of Kolb-style paint systems.

  

 As far as how to do it - attach the dacron of your choice to the airframe with any dacron-approved fabric cement and then dope the tapes on using either Poly-brush or any nitrate dope. Prepare it just like you were planning to use Stits coatings, except that you quit when you get to the open areas.

  

 I then spray the upper surfaces, vertical surfaces, and fuselage with black, thinned with with a mix of polypropylene glycol and water, AKA windshield washer fluid so that the paint is thinned and watery, it has to penetrate and encapsulate the fabric. If it runs, just blot it carefully with a paper towel. Don't let it drip through to the opposite side, that is too much. Lay the fuselage over so that the paint won't run on the vertical surfaces. Why black? It blocks out all light, and presumably the UV as well. The Hummer was black, and 16 years later...

  

 Then lay a thicker coat or two on to seal the weave and make it look nice, let it dry for a couple days so the paint won't soften and stick to your sawhorses, and then shoot the lighter of your unmasked color coats, you may want to shoot a coat of white first to make the color pop out nice, I know I will. Let it dry for at least a week and then mask it off and shoot your darker colors. For your final coats use Latex X-tender instead of windshield washer fluid, it is clear instead of blue, & it makes the paint flow out and gives it more gloss. Your local paint store probably sells it.

  

 One thing to keep in mind: never let two latex painted surfaces lay on each other, or you will come back later and find that they have glued themselves together, and when you pull them apart, you will mess something up.

  

 Bottom line, latex is an acceptable system, but it has it's limitations and quirks. If cost and light weight were not priorities, I would be using aircraft dope instead and not fooling with it and I would already be done instead of having to wait to shoot the final coats next week. (On the other hand, it has been in the 90's for weeks, and I didn't have to fool with retarder this time to keep it from spiderwebbing on me like the Stits I used to paint the MKIII with did. Hmmm....)

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 

 

 

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flypoker(at)windstream.ne
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

I am also on the Challenger list. Several guys on that list use it.

Jerry

---

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

[quote="rickofudall"]<snip> The sample you have left UV exposed, have you done the 56 lb test on a piece from it. That would be the real deal in proving long term survivability. 



Rick Girard 

 [quote]



Actually Vince started it, I have the fabric/latex test sample now, it got passed on to me. And no, I don't think that 56 lb test ever happened. However it does great during the poke it, wrinkle it, abuse it test. Not that that proves much, but it looks impressive...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

GeoB

Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 207
Location: Fresno, CA

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

> To use it, you have to thin the latex enough for your first coat that it will penetrate and encapsulate the fabric



I understand this- but why would you not thin with water as this is water based paint?



Are we looking for something here that thins like water yet dries faster?



GeoB

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"Members of Congress should be compelled to wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers, so we could identify their corporate sponsors"

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Latex paint (again???!!!!)

 	  GeoB wrote: 	
		  > To use it, you have to thin the latex enough for your first coat that it will penetrate and encapsulate the fabric



I understand this- but why would you not thin with water as this is water based paint?



Are we looking for something here that thins like water yet dries faster?

GeoB 	




You can thin with water, that is what I did. But for your finish coats, water and polypropylene glycol (windshield washer fluid if you are using blue or green paint) AKA Latex X-Tender for other colors to get good flow out and gloss. And there may be better alternates, that is just what I have used.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

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