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MG Airbrake question

 
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kheindl(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:51 pm    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Hi motorglider guys. 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.
Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.
I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.
The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.
These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.
Karl
[quote][b]


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Hi Bud,

Thanks for your input again. It will be interesting to see what Europa will come up with. I especially like your attachments.
At the moment I am still learning to fly this thing properly, and approach/landing without any airbrake. I am getting very close to the adjacent cornfield, then the fence, and I am still touching down way too far down the runway. When a goaround is called for, I just open the throttle a little bit and I am off again. No flaps, prop or trim to worry about.
I don't really have the official approval (Special CofA) yet to fly the motorglider, but hope to get it soon.
On the airbrake issue, I am going to start with putting in a couple of holes in each airbrake, drilled horizontally in the max open position, and re-enforced with a ring of flox.
As you said, in the worst case it is easy to fill them in again or put tape over it.
Karl
From: budyerly(at)msn.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: MG Airbrake question
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:48:51 -0400

.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding-bottom:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-right:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass BODY.ecxhmmessage {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:10pt;} Karl,
I normally get 57 degrees and can tweak 60 but usually don't bother for the last 3 degrees.
See the notes from my shop instructions attached.
I have not minded the pull effort, as they stay at 50% for landing normally.  Above 85 knots it is a heck of a pull past 50%.  John Bolyard and I have discussed putting holes in his airbrake trailing edge to decrease the deployment effort (as in the Dauntless) or lengthening the leading edge and fitting holes to prevent rapid pressure build up or they will flop wildly open.  Unfortunately it will be manual research and trial and error on my part until the factory planes are finished and tested... NASA, or NACA more accurately, and the Air Ministry documents (see one example above in .pdf)  are far and few between on air brake analysis as dive or airbrake research was proprietary data of manufacturers who used hydraulics to move their airbrake.  Our airbrake is a copy of a Slingsby design which was quite successful, but something went wrong in the translation. 
 
Just a note to the others, the MG wings (about 34 sets) were sold only by the original company to the US/North American market ( I think the last set was produced in 2004) but unable to be flown in Europe until recently.  Today, Europa is ready to begin new MG wing production certified under JAR-VLA and CS 22 requirements which make them stronger and saleable world wide.  It took Dave Stanbridge to make this happen.  Now the factory has two MGs being constructed and will be evaluated for these kind of fixes.  First a computerized aerodynamic evaluation was made, followed by a detailed structural test, currently the rigging and building is being evaluated, which will be followed by flight test and airbrake fixes will surely follow.
 
Doesn't help your situation now I'm afraid.  The airbrakes are not dangerous as is but are very inconvenient to use without pumping up the muscles.  You can tell a MG pilot by the size of his right bicep.
 
I know we all are going as fast as time and money permit.
 
Bud
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kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:20 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind.
Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone

Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:

[quote]

Hi motorglider guys.

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.
Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.
I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.
The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.
These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.
Karl
Quote:


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kheindl(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Alex,

If the holes increase drag, then it is the last thing I should be doing ? I guess I'll find out by experimenting.
Karl
From: kaarsberg(at)terra.com.br
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: MG Airbrake question
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 11:17:57 +0200

Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind. 
Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone

Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:

[quote]

Hi motorglider guys. 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.
Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.
I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.
The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.
These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.
Karl
Quote:


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terrys(at)cisco.com
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

This sounds like an interesting idea.  Our airbrakes don’t seem to require too much effort, but do not provide enough drag.  Even with full airbrakes, we often end up floating well down the runway.  If drilling holes in the surfaces increases drag, I would be interested in trying this.
 
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
XS monowheel, 912S and Airmaster prop, currently with long wings installed
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kaarsberg
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:18 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind. 

 

Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone


Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:
Quote:

 

Hi motorglider guys. 
 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.

Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.

I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.

These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.

 

Karl

 

 
 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Terry,

I am just curious. You say the brakes are easy to hold fully open. I wonder why that is so. Could you please let me know what the dimension front to back is of the airbrakes. If they are slightly smaller than mine, then that would explain it. My control surfaces were pre-manufactured somewhere else.
Did you check that the extension in flight is the full 60 degrees ?
Karl
Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:08:10 -0700
From: terrys(at)cisco.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

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This sounds like an interesting idea.  Our airbrakes don’t seem to require too much effort, but do not provide enough drag.  Even with full airbrakes, we often end up floating well down the runway.  If drilling holes in the surfaces increases drag, I would be interested in trying this.
 
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
XS monowheel, 912S and Airmaster prop, currently with long wings installed
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kaarsberg
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:18 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind. 

 

Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone


Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:
Quote:

 

Hi motorglider guys. 
 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.

Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.

I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.

These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.

 

Karl

 

 
 
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terrys(at)cisco.com
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Hi Karl,



I wouldn’t say they were easy to hold full open, but not excessively firm either. I will measure the surfaces for you next time I am out to the airport, probably next week end.



Regards,

Terry





From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:53 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question



Terry,



I am just curious. You say the brakes are easy to hold fully open. I wonder why that is so. Could you please let me know what the dimension front to back is of the airbrakes. If they are slightly smaller than mine, then that would explain it. My control surfaces were pre-manufactured somewhere else.

Did you check that the extension in flight is the full 60 degrees ?



Karl
________________________________

Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:08:10 -0700
From: terrys(at)cisco.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

This sounds like an interesting idea. Our airbrakes don’t seem to require too much effort, but do not provide enough drag. Even with full airbrakes, we often end up floating well down the runway. If drilling holes in the surfaces increases drag, I would be interested in trying this.



Regards,

Terry Seaver

A135/N135TD

XS monowheel, 912S and Airmaster prop, currently with long wings installed





From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kaarsberg
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:18 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question



Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind.



Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone
Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com> escreveu:



Hi motorglider guys.



Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.

Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.

I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.

These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.



Karl









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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Hi Karl,
 
I measured the airbrakes this weekend.  At the root end of the airbrake it is 22.2 cm wide, with 8.5 cm going up and 13.7 cm going down when deployed.  Statically we get 66 deg of travel, it’s hard to say how much in flight, but I expect it is at least 60 deg.
 
Regards,
Terry
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:53 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Terry,
 

I am just curious. You say the brakes are easy to hold fully open. I wonder why that is so. Could you please let me know what the dimension front to back is of the airbrakes. If they are slightly smaller than mine, then that would explain it. My control surfaces were pre-manufactured somewhere else.

Did you check that the extension in flight is the full 60 degrees ?

 

Karl





Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:08:10 -0700
From: terrys(at)cisco.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
This sounds like an interesting idea.  Our airbrakes don’t seem to require too much effort, but do not provide enough drag.  Even with full airbrakes, we often end up floating well down the runway.  If drilling holes in the surfaces increases drag, I would be interested in trying this.
 
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
XS monowheel, 912S and Airmaster prop, currently with long wings installed
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kaarsberg
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:18 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind. 

 

Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone


Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:
Quote:

 

Hi motorglider guys. 
 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.

Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.

I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.

These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.

 

Karl

 

 
 
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kheindl(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Many thanks, Terry. The width measurement is the same as mine. I will have to check the other two. I am surprised that on the ground you get 66 degrees. The build manual calls for 60. And I wouldn't know how to increase that because the travel is limited by the nylon stop near the bellcrank.

Regards,
Karl

Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2010 09:30:54 -0700
From: terrys(at)cisco.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

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Hi Karl,
 
I measured the airbrakes this weekend.  At the root end of the airbrake it is 22.2 cm wide, with 8.5 cm going up and 13.7 cm going down when deployed.  Statically we get 66 deg of travel, it’s hard to say how much in flight, but I expect it is at least 60 deg.
 
Regards,
Terry
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:53 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Terry,
 

I am just curious. You say the brakes are easy to hold fully open. I wonder why that is so. Could you please let me know what the dimension front to back is of the airbrakes. If they are slightly smaller than mine, then that would explain it. My control surfaces were pre-manufactured somewhere else.

Did you check that the extension in flight is the full 60 degrees ?

 

Karl





Subject: RE: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:08:10 -0700
From: terrys(at)cisco.com
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
This sounds like an interesting idea.  Our airbrakes don’t seem to require too much effort, but do not provide enough drag.  Even with full airbrakes, we often end up floating well down the runway.  If drilling holes in the surfaces increases drag, I would be interested in trying this.
 
Regards,
Terry Seaver
A135/N135TD
XS monowheel, 912S and Airmaster prop, currently with long wings installed
 
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kaarsberg
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 2:18 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: MG Airbrake question


 
Speed brakes such as those fitted on a Caravelle was full of holes, this provided for more turbulence and hence resistance per square inch of surface in the wind. 

 

Alex, kit 529

Enviado de meu iPhone


Em 29/08/2010, às 00:50, Karl Heindl <kheindl(at)msn.com (kheindl(at)msn.com)> escreveu:
Quote:

 

Hi motorglider guys. 
 

Has anyone made any changes to their airbrakes ? I find they requires a lot of force to hold them in the fully open position. The air pressure on the bottom half far exceeds that on the top.

Because of that it is also impossible to get the maximum deflection of 60 degrees. I mounted an angle indicator, and it shows about 45-50, which severely degrades their performance.

I don't understand why nothing was ever done about this. They have been producing these wings for about 11 years now.

The obvious solution to me is to reduce the area of the bottom half, either by putting in holes, or trimming back the trailing edge.

These brakes are not really necessary with the engine running, but are essential when I get to making dead stick landings.

 

Karl

 

 
 
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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 804

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: MG Airbrake question Reply with quote

Hmmm, airbrakes that are not quite effective as we would like.

Any ideas how to raise (mixed) ailerons when you apply airbrakes (crow)?

That should help out a bit and effectively give you more washout at the same time.

Ron Parigoris


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