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dmaib@me.com
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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 Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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All of your cylinders peaked at 1476?! That would be pretty unusual in my experience running Continentals and Lycomings LOP for the past several years. I don't think I have ever seen all cylinders peak at the same temperature.
David Maib
40559
Flying
On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
[quote]
Carl,
You are correct. All of my cylinders each peaked at 1476 but at different
fuel flows. Because cylinder 5 pealed over a gallon richer than the others
I new there was a problem with it not getting enough fuel.
Alan
--
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David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL |
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
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| Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:40 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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David,
All were within 3 degrees of 1476.
Alan
Sent from my iPod
On Aug 29, 2010, at 6:02 AM, David Maib <dmaib(at)me.com> wrote:
[quote]
All of your cylinders peaked at 1476?! That would be pretty unusual in my experience running Continentals and Lycomings LOP for the past several years. I don't think I have ever seen all cylinders peak at the same temperature.
David Maib
40559
Flying
On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
>
>
> Carl,
> You are correct. All of my cylinders each peaked at 1476 but at different
> fuel flows. Because cylinder 5 pealed over a gallon richer than the others
> I new there was a problem with it not getting enough fuel.
> Alan
>
> --
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bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:23 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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Not harsh, just accurate. Waiting sucks, but I think it beats dying.
From: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sat, August 28, 2010 12:58:04 PM
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
See now there is where it gets crazy. You KNOW without a doubt
that there is a problem with the engine, yet you're going
to continue to fly it that way!?!?! Why? Try telling that
story to a few friends, how you know your fuel system
has a problem, but you're going to go fly it anyway, and see
what kind of reaction they give you. I understand the urge,
but to actually KNOW there is a problem, just fix it first.
The flow divider isn't that complicated on the precision
system. Like Dave said, there is a delicate diaphragm
and a couple other parts, but nothing extreme in there. Go
super slow, take pictures, and have someone there to observe
in case you drop something so you know how it all came apart,
and you should be able to investigate it. On a new airplane,
it's probably something that was in a hose that made it's
way there and is plugging an orifice. If you don't want to
disassemble it yourself, that's fine, and anyone can respect
that....but calling the engine maker isn't necessarily the
best path either....you can always call Precision directly.
It's THEIR fuel system. The engine maker will probably have
the answer, but you're certainly not utilizing all the
resources you can to find the issue. Me, I'd probably
call the local A&P and have him come over and I'd pay him
a little cash to look at it with me. He probably has
experience with them if he's been around a while. He may
even have a good manual on hand (something that would be
nice for you to have too). Then you could get it dealt with
in short order. When it comes right down to it, you
or someone else is either going to be disassembling the thing,
or you're going to be shipping it off for repair/replacement,
but there are only 2 ultimate resolutions.
Flying it ROP will just guarantee that your one cylinder
is going to be running at a different power level and
have different cylinder pressures and things going on than
your other cylinders. You're going to get more
carbon fouling on your good cylinders, or cause some other
things along the way by continuing to fly it.
Sorry to sound harsh, but the last thing we need is someone
out there flying engines in RV-10's with known defects to
not only hurt themselves, but hurt the RV-10's reputation
again. So far of the ones that bought it, at least two of
the 3 that we know of that killed people can be traced
to stupid decisions...and I guess someone has to speak up
when they see it happening. Fuel system issues are one of
the primary mechanical causes of homebuilt aircraft crashes.
Stupid decisions are another major one. Combine the two
and it just makes me cringe. Dan was pretty flippant about
that battery terminal crimp he did when he moved that
battery. But, he'd have had to delay that trip (the one
that he was prepping for that cost him his life) if he'd have
had to wait for the proper tools to crimp the wire. Looks
like maybe waiting that extra day or few might have been
a better choice.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 8/28/2010 2:22 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
[quote] Dave,
Mine is a precision silver hawk ex. No call back from Mattituck. Will
have to wait to Monday. Will have to continue to fly rich of peak this
weekend.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of *Dave Saylor
*Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:02 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
Before I took the contaminated one apart, I called the engine shop to
find out what to expect. That was a Bendix flow divider, not an AFP. AFP
might walk someone through a teardown. I'd call them before I took one
of their dividers apart, which is what I'd recommend for anyone. After
that it's up to the builder to decide if he's capable or not.
The Bendix divider was pretty simple inside. It was a few years ago but
I remember a fairly delicate diaphragm, a vertical stem that acts as the
valve, and a light spring. Just go slow and be careful, and it should go
OK. I actually found the bit of hose that was causing the problem but it
was pretty obvious, not buried deep inside one of the internal passages.
That was pure luck.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)
<mailto:johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>> wrote:
Dave, you say you changed it. That is what I did with an Airflow
Performance divider. They were fast and it was piece of mind insurance.
the aircraft ran fine afterwards. Do you support, OBAM builders opening
up their flow dividers.
John Cox
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Dave Saylor
*Sent:* Thu 8/26/2010 9:32 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
*Subject:* Re: RV10-List: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
I've seen two flow divider failures in the last 5 years. One had a
little speck of hose liner (from a certified hose shop) jammed in the
stem. The engine would barely run.
The other was discovered looking for excessive roughness LOP. We changed
just about everything we could think of, and finally changed the flow
divider just to be thorough. That fixed the problem, but we never did
figure out why.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>> wrote:
Kelly,
My engine has had the AD done but we did find an interesting finding. We
did the bottle test with the injectors on and we saw less fuel coming
out #5 even though it had the richest injector. So now we know the
problem must be in the flow divider. Not sure what the next step will
be. Will try calling Precision tomorrow.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)>] *On Behalf Of *Kelly McMullen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 8:07 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
It is actually an AD on the fuel injection servos to check the security
of the plug on the side. Some have been found loose and hanging by the
safety wire.
AD 2008-08-14
SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment
adopting emergency
airworthiness directive (AD) 2008-06-51 that was sent previously to all
known U.S. owners and
operators of Lycoming Engines IO, (L)IO, TIO, (L)TIO, AEIO, AIO, IGO,
IVO, and HIO series
reciprocating engines, TCM TSIO-360-RB reciprocating engines, and
Superior Air Parts, Inc. IO-360
series reciprocating engines with certain Precision Airmotive LLC RSA-5
and RSA-10 series fuel
injection servos. This AD results from eighteen reports of fuel
injection servo plugs, part number
(P/N) 383493, that had loosened or completely backed out of the threaded
plug hole on the regulator
cover of the fuel injection servo. These servo plugs were installed with
servo plug gasket, P/N
365533, under the plug hex-head. We are issuing this AD to prevent a
lean running engine, which
could result in a substantial loss of engine power and subsequent loss
of control of the airplane
(f) Inspect the fuel injection servo plug, P/N 383493, for looseness, by
attempting to turn it by
hand, while being careful not to damage the safety wire or seal. If the
plug moves, it is loose.
(g) If the plug is not loose, go to paragraph (i) of this AD.
(h) If the plug is loose, do the following:
(1) Carefully cut and remove the safety wire that spans between the
servo plug and regulator
cover only.
(2) Remove the servo plug while ensuring that the gasket, P/N 365533,
that is behind the plug, is
not lost. The gasket may be slightly stuck to the regulator cover.
(3) Examine the threads on the servo plug and regulator cover for
damage. Threads should be
smooth and consistent, with no burrs or chips. The servo plug outer
diameter threads should also
measure within 0.7419-0.7500-inch.
(4) If the threads on either the servo plug or the regulator cover are
damaged, or do not measure
within the limits in paragraph (h)(3) of this AD, the servo is not
eligible for any installation and must
be replaced before further flight.
(5) Inspect the gasket, P/N 365533, for tears and other damage. We are
allowing the re-use of
undamaged gaskets. Replace damaged gaskets with a new gasket, P/N 365533.
(6) When reassembling, do not install any servo plug or regulator cover
that is not eligible for
installation. Install the gasket onto the servo plug and reassemble the
servo plug to the regulator
cover.
(7) Torque the servo plug to a new, higher torque of 90-100 in-lbs, to
help maintain the proper
clamp-up force against the plug and cover.
( Safety wire the servo plug with 0.025-inch diameter wire to the
regulator cover. Information
on properly safety wiring the plug can be found in Precision Airmotive
LLC Mandatory Service
Bulletin No. PRS-107, Revision 1, dated March 6, 2008.
(9) Inspect all other safety wire on the servo. Replace any that are
damaged.
On 8/22/2010 4:32 PM, Alan Mekler wrote:
Patrick,
Which SB are you referring to?
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:24 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
*Subject:* RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
That's why you need to know the probes are OK. They may be giving you a
wrong signal. The coke bottle test is, undo your injector lines from the
injectors, put the same size glass bottle under them and turn on your
boost pump, fill bottle about 3/4 and see if the same amount of fuel is
in all the glass bottles. Normally you do it with your injectors on but
since you have different injectors it won't work that way.
Just my way of checking.
Patrick Thyssen
Have you done the SB on the throttle body. The gasket and G on plug. I
just checked another RV10 and he had not done it and it was loose.
--- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Alan Mekler /<amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>/* wrote:
From: Alan Mekler <amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)> <mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>
Subject: RE: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 6:00 PM
Patrick,
Give me the details of the coke bottle test. I’m going to try switching
probes.
The odd thing is the engine runs smooth.
Alan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)>
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of *Patrick Thyssen
*Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2010 5:53 PM
*To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
*Subject:* Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
HAVE YOU DONE THE COKE BOTTLE TEST WITHOUT THE INJECTORS. SINCE EACH
INJECTOR WILL BE DIFFERENT NOW. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT YOUR PROBES? Maybe
swap a few probes and see what you get.
Patrick Thyssen
--- On *Sun, 8/22/10, Kelly McMullen /<kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
<mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>/* wrote:
From: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> <mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
Subject: Re: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 2010, 3:46 PM
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
<mailto:kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
About the only thing left is your dry tappet clearances. Your engine
builder should be able to give you what those clearances are. Ideally
the clearances are in the middle of the allowable range and similar for
each
cylinder................................................................................
Alternatively you could measure the amount of movement of each rocker
arm. Intakes should be the same and exhausts the same. Has anyone looked
inside your sump/intake manifold to ensure there is no obstruction, nor
anything loose in there? Something is wrong if your #3&4 peak last with
the leanest nozzles and #5 peaks first with the richest nozzle.
Still not understanding how the engine could be running smoothly with
that wide a difference in mixtures between cylinders.
On 8/22/2010 7:40 AM, Alan Mekler wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "Alan Mekler"<amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>
<mailto:amekler(at)metrocast.net (amekler(at)metrocast.net)>
>
> Kelly,
> I just looked at my injectors cylinder 3 and 4 have the leanest
> injectors(GAMI A) while cylinder 5 has the richest injector (Gami J plus)
> Alan
>
> --
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bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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OK, after all the discussion on EGT temps I can chime in as I took my 10 up for its maiden voyage Sat. Most of the temps were close except 2 that were 100 degrees above the rest. If all the probes are equally spaced below the manifold 'Appox 2 inches" What-else might sway the readings.
From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent:
[quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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Bruce Johnson wrote: | Quote: | OK, after all the discussion on EGT temps I can chime in as I took my 10 up for its maiden voyage Sat. Most of the temps were close except 2 that were 100 degrees above the rest. If all the probes are equally spaced below the manifold 'Appox 2 inches" What-else might sway the readings.
|
The hole in the injector and how well it was made?
Linn
do not archive
[quote][b]
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amekler(at)metrocast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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Called Mattituck today. Will send out the fuel divider tomorrow.
TBC.
Alan [quote][b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:41 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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Well, as we saw, it can be any number of things, from differences in
injectors, the flow distributor, intake leaks, etc. You would like them
to be within 100, but they are unlikely to ever be the same. Unless the
engine builder did very careful flow matching between cylinders, even
just the differences in cylinder intake and exhaust can affect the outcome.
On 8/30/2010 9:32 AM, Linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: | Bruce Johnson wrote:
> OK, after all the discussion on EGT temps I can chime in as I took my
> 10 up for its maiden voyage Sat. Most of the temps were close except
> 2 that were 100 degrees above the rest. If all the probes are equally
> spaced below the manifold 'Appox 2 inches" What-else might sway the
> readings.
The hole in the injector and how well it was made?
Linn
do not archive
*
*
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: TMXIO-540 and GAMI injectors |
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I guess it goes without saying,, but. Congrats on the first flight...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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