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Six Year Anniversary

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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:01 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate  

and started down the road to building my RV-10.  Now, some 3227 hours  

of absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make  

it to the finish line.  I heard the warning, more than once, that life  

changes over the years of the build.   Issues of health, marriage and  

money, among so many other things can knock you off course.



I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the  

tennis elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet  

squeezer for eight consecutive hours.  Last year I took a spill on my  

bike that put me in the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the  

shop for the better part of two months.  And now it's all about  

money.  Business for me, as I am sure for many of you, has fallen off  

a cliff.  Though things have been a bit more positive this month, I  

still have to start thinking about my options with the plane.



With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the  

group:



I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box."  If I have  

to sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them  

separate from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?



Another option is to take on a partner.  For those that have gone down  

that road, do you have any words of wisdom?



The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane  

"on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really  

want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day  

VFR operations?



Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but  

need to know what path to take if it comes to that.



Jeff Carpenter

40304

bbreckenridge(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

If Day VFR is one of your options, do it!  You will upgrade later when the timing is more appropriate.  I would avoid a partner, although I'm part of a club of 5 in a C172.  

  

 The options you presented have 2 extremes:  keep the plane and finish it without all the bells and whistles you heard in your dreams, or, sell the whole project.  If you have to get the cash somehow, then finishing it doesn't seem to be a viable option.

   

 And, the finished, signed off aircraft, even if Day VFR is worth more than the uncompleted project.

  

 Forge ahead!

  

 Bruce Breckenridge

 40018

 On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)>

 

On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate and started down the road to building my RV-10.  Now, some 3227 hours of absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make it to the finish line.  I heard the warning, more than once, that life changes over the years of the build.   Issues of health, marriage and money, among so many other things can knock you off course.

 

I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the tennis elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet squeezer for eight consecutive hours.  Last year I took a spill on my bike that put me in the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the shop for the better part of two months.  And now it's all about money.  Business for me, as I am sure for many of you, has fallen off a cliff.  Though things have been a bit more positive this month, I still have to start thinking about my options with the plane.

 

With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the group:



I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box."  If I have to sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them separate from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?

 

Another option is to take on a partner.  For those that have gone down that road, do you have any words of wisdom?



The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane "on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day VFR operations?

 

Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but need to know what path to take if it comes to that.



Jeff Carpent====================

 he Contribution link below to find out more about

 * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com

 s.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

                              -Matt Dralle, Li    - The RV10-List Email Forum -

 :

 0-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List<    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 =   --> h

 

[b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Sorry to hear of your dilemma.  I've never been in your shoes, but I'll 

offer some observations below.

On 11/16/2010 7:57 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate 

 and started down the road to building my RV-10.  Now, some 3227 hours 

 of absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make 

 it to the finish line.  I heard the warning, more than once, that life 

 changes over the years of the build.   Issues of health, marriage and 

 money, among so many other things can knock you off course.



 I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the 

 tennis elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet 

 squeezer for eight consecutive hours.  Last year I took a spill on my 

 bike that put me in the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the 

 shop for the better part of two months.  And now it's all about 

 money.  Business for me, as I am sure for many of you, has fallen off 

 a cliff.  Though things have been a bit more positive this month, I 

 still have to start thinking about my options with the plane.



 With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the 

 group:



 I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box."  If I have 

 to sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them 

 separate from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?

I doubt that it'll make any difference if you mount the engine .... 
	


other than you've saved the buyer some labor.  Leaving the engine 'in 

the box' makes it 'less aged' Vs. hanging out in the air.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Another option is to take on a partner.  For those that have gone down 

 that road, do you have any words of wisdom?

I've only had partners in one of my aviation endeavors, a Pitts Special 
	


S1-E.  I ended up buying both their shares at a discount when the 

partnership broke down.  However, I know of one project with partners 

that's flying after 13 years building together and an RV-10 presently 

under construction by partners.  My only words of wisdom would be to 

document what happens to the project should the partnership dissolve 

... in other words what would the value of the share, and who would end 

up with first right of refusal.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane 

 "on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really 

 want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day 

 VFR operations?

Steam gauges (altimeter, airspeed, compass, fuel and oil pressure and 
	


oil temp) and a radio.  You might look at http://www.mglavionics.co.za/ 

for a relatively low cost glass panel to replace the steam gauges.  They 

also have electronic versions of the steam gauges.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but 

 need to know what path to take if it comes to that.

I've noticed that when people sell their project unfinished ..... for 
	


whatever reason .... they pretty much drop out of aviation all together 

... and never go back.  The investment you have in aviation also 

includes what you spent getting and keeping your license ..... but is 

offset somewhat by the enjoyment you've had along the way.  If I was in 

your shoes, I'd try and hang on to complete the project solo.  Lot less 

possibilities of contention down the road.  Also, what are you going to 

do with all that free time on your hands ..... but spend money or become 

a couch potato???

Linn



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

Robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Jeff,



            I am sorry to hear of your turn in fortune. Far too many

deserving people are left w/o a chair when the music stops economically.



            Placing my comments in the “observation” column rather than the

“recommendation” column; I would *consider* taking on a partner or two if

need be. The idea of a bare bones build may not meet your ultimate flying

requirement and will in my opinion damage maximum resale. Additionally the

cost of “upgrading” can be substantial when considering down time and

replacement parts which is not being efficient with limited cash.

Furthermore a bare bones build still has you with 100% of the insurance,

100% of the Phase 1 fly off costs, 100% of the storage, 100% of…well 100%

coop85(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Jeff,

    Very sorry to hear of your situation, but I'm afraid I can sympathize.

As others have mentioned a partnership is a tricky thing, I suspect the key

is to know your partner(s) well and make sure you are all on the same page

as far as expectations on scheduling, maintenance and upgrades.



I couldn't agree more that a VFR only bird is better than nothing.  Most of

us fly these for fun and while having the ability to go IFR is certainly

convenient, I'd much rather fly VFR anyway.  As for the minimums, I've built

4 airplanes, 3 were VFR and the -10 is full IFR.  Many will suggest you

should have some IFR capability (Artificial horizon, etc) "just in case".  I

don't subscribe to that at all, I am very capable of not flying into a cloud

if I'm not supposed to.  You just have to be aware and conservative.  The

FARs spell out what's needed and it isn't much beyond a compass, altitude

and airspeed and basic engine instruments.  Flying can be an absolute joy

with the minimum and upgrading down the road is quite simple with all the

glass cockpit options.  If possible this is the route I'd go as you have

invested so much already.



As for what to do if you decide to part with it, I've done this twice.  I

had a Q-2 that just wouldn't sell so I sold the engine which was a sure

thing and eventually sold the airplane but that was a unique animal.  I have

a Skybolt project that has sat idle for 2 years and money is a snag right

now.  I looked at several options and tried selling part of the project

unsuccessfully before deciding to sell the engine.  As it turns out that was

the greatest pot of money I could have gained and also has the least

emotional value.  Additionally, an engine becomes less popular the longer it

sits which is another reason to set it free for the short term and when

business picks back up buy another one.  Hopefully you will also lose the

least compared to what you paid for it and you don't have any time invested.

Of course this is only valid if you think you'd like to keep working on the

-10 for future use.  As for me, it worked out great to get an infusion of

cash but also get to keep the heart of the project.



Best of luck, 

Marcus



40286



--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:42 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

On 11/16/2010 7:57 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane

 "on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really

 want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day

 VFR operations?


	




Hi Jeff,

	For what it is worth, that is what I am doing with my Sportsman

project.  Sounds like I am in a similar situation - I have the airframe

and the engine, but I do not yet have any of the avionics or interior

items.  I'll likely be flying it without paint, and VFR until such a

time as I can afford to improve it.



	I'm not to the panel yet (and won't be for several months at least), so

I am not positive what my minimum will be, but I'm envisioning a single

screen GRT EFIS system and a single radio.  Eventually would like to go

to a dual screen EFIS system, and a Garmin 430W and ADS-B when I can

afford it.  I'll probably end up painting it before upgrading the panel,

though.



	Best of luck with your project.  One option you may consider is to get

another builder to help you build it, but not necessarily have them as a

partner when the plane is finished.  This may help if there are

motivation issues.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/



Please use Netiquette Guidelines http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

Kindly TRIM your email replies and post AFTER the relevant text

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Jeff;

Still remember that day I brought my wife and daughter over to see your 

project to determine if I would venture on the RV-10 build. I hate to see 

someone give up and especially you based on that motivation you gave me over 

3 years ago. I know times are tough and I encourage you to go with Option 3. 

I am going the cheap route and not doing IFR or ADS-B initially but my Dynon 

will do everything I need to fly anywhere and eventually once I know how 

much family trips we'll take and how we do it I'll expand later as needed.

Also, unless you got someone from the SoCal list to take your hangar, drop 

the hangar, plenty of people at Chino to share a hangar with when you're 

ready to park it and that will open up the finances for you a little. I know 

Don isn't happy with this input but whatever it takes!!

Stick with it! I need other RV-10's to fly with in the future and the 

other -10 in french Valley is storing his for a while.. I can't be the only 

one flying locally!! that just would not work.. Option 3 unless there is no 

other option.

Pascal



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Jeff Carpenter" <jeff(at)westcottpress.com>

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 4:57 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Six Year Anniversary



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate  and 

 started down the road to building my RV-10.  Now, some 3227 hours  of 

 absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make  it to 

 the finish line.  I heard the warning, more than once, that life  changes 

 over the years of the build.   Issues of health, marriage and  money, 

 among so many other things can knock you off course.



 I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the  tennis 

 elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet  squeezer 

 for eight consecutive hours.  Last year I took a spill on my  bike that 

 put me in the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the  shop for the 

 better part of two months.  And now it's all about  money.  Business for 

 me, as I am sure for many of you, has fallen off  a cliff.  Though things 

 have been a bit more positive this month, I  still have to start thinking 

 about my options with the plane.



 With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the 

 group:



 I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box."  If I have  to 

 sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them 

 separate from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?



 Another option is to take on a partner.  For those that have gone down 

 that road, do you have any words of wisdom?



 The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane 

 "on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really  want. 

 What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day  VFR 

 operations?



 Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but 

 need to know what path to take if it comes to that.



 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

I won't pretend to be able to comment on the big questions but regarding 

the "on the cheap" - take it as a challenge and a journey towards  what 

seems to be the original Van's vision.  Steam guages, rivet head static 

ports and aluminum tubing pitots.  Go for it!  I'd take most bets that 

most builders are flying day VFR EXCLUSIVELY, which isn't to say it's 

your desired mission but it's a helluva way to travel.  Fast and  high, 

in your homebuilt chariot.    Build to fly, then fill in the blanks as 

fortunes allow.  You don't need paint, interior gew gaws or instrument 

gimcracks.  Fill 'em in when you can.



With luck, fortunes will change, perhaps in part because you really and 

need want and need them to.  Or not,  but that's life.



Day VFR is the core of what we do!



  Bill "doing the full monty but with a healthy respect for keeping 

one's pants belted and suspended" Watson

40605 July 2006

The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane 

"on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really 

want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day 

VFR operations?

 	  Quote:

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Hi Jeff,



I don't know if you remember but I called you soon after your bike

wreck because when you crashed, your phone redialed and left me a

long, rather agonizing voicemail!  I know it hurt--I was practically

there.



I took on a partner at about the stage you're at.  His buy-in financed

a bunch of the big parts which was a huge relief.  I haven't looked

back.  It's been a fantastic arrangement.  The greatest thing is that

all the goodies, even now, are half price!



We rarely have conflicts with scheduling.  We use Google Calender to

keep track of who's flying when, and we have a tie-breaker system in

case there's a glitch.



We used a template from AOPA to form the partnership.  It had some

good ideas we wouldn't have considered.  I'll send you a copy of our

agreement if you like.



Hang in there!  I know how you feel with business the way it is.

Maybe we should move to Texas...



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell



On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate and

 started down the road to building my RV-10. Â Now, some 3227 hours of

 absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make it to

 the finish line. Â I heard the warning, more than once, that life changes

 over the years of the build. Â  Issues of health, marriage and money, among

 so many other things can knock you off course.



 I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the tennis

 elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet squeezer for

 eight consecutive hours. Â Last year I took a spill on my bike that put me in

 the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the shop for the better part of

 two months. Â And now it's all about money. Â Business for me, as I am sure

 for many of you, has fallen off a cliff. Â Though things have been a bit more

 positive this month, I still have to start thinking about my options with

 the plane.



 With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the group:



 I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box." Â If I have to

 sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them separate

 from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?



 Another option is to take on a partner. Â For those that have gone down that

 road, do you have any words of wisdom?



 The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane "on

 the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really want. Â What

 do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day VFR operations?



 Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but need

 to know what path to take if it comes to that.



 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:26 am Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Jeff,

Sorry to hear about this. I think all of the options you have listed are viable. I want to make some comments about a partnership. I have been in a couple of them and they were mostly positive experiences. My last one was an older Bonanza that I owned with another individual. This was one of the most pleasurable airplane ownership experiences I have had. IF (notice that is a big IF) you can find the right individual, it can be a great way to enjoy ownership at half the cost. I had another experience a few years ago where a four owner partnership was really made unpleasant because of one jerk. 



If you decide to go this way, find a compatible partner, use the AOPA resources to come up with a good partnership agreement (including close attention to how the partnership can be terminated in the future), and press on.



Good Luck



David Maib

40559

Flying



On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:57 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 On November 16, 2004, at 10:07 AM I cracked open my empennage crate and started down the road to building my RV-10.  Now, some 3227 hours of absolute pleasure later, I'm not entirely sure I'll be able to make it to the finish line.  I heard the warning, more than once, that life changes over the years of the build.   Issues of health, marriage and money, among so many other things can knock you off course.

 

 I lost three months of build time during the summer of 2006 to the tennis elbow (in both elbows) I earned while using my pneumatic rivet squeezer for eight consecutive hours.  Last year I took a spill on my bike that put me in the ER for an afternoon and kept me out of the shop for the better part of two months.  And now it's all about money.  Business for me, as I am sure for many of you, has fallen off a cliff.  Though things have been a bit more positive this month, I still have to start thinking about my options with the plane.

 

 With all that having been said, I pose the following questions to the group:

 

 I currently have the engine and prop new and "in the box."  If I have to sell the project, is it best to leave them that way and sell them separate from the nearly complete plane or to go ahead and mount them?

 

 Another option is to take on a partner.  For those that have gone down that road, do you have any words of wisdom?

 

 The third option is to forge ahead and see if I can complete the plane "on the cheap..." meaning Day VFR until I can afford what I really want.  What do you consider the minimum required configuration for Day VFR operations?

 

 Thank you all for you help... I haven't given up on finishing yet, but need to know what path to take if it comes to that.

 

 Jeff Carpenter

 40304

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

fdombroski

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Posts: 33
Location: Westfield NJ

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Six Year Anniversary

Hi Jeff,



I went through this almost 2 years ago, so I know the angst.  Thankfully life has come full circle.



If you want to finish on the cheap, you can pick up a Blue Mountain EFIS dirt cheap, less than the cost of steam. I would not fly IFR with it, but it would give you an easy upgrade path when finances improve, and still provide a full glass panel.



Best of luck,

Frank

_________________
Frank Dombroski
Multiple Offender RV-8, 7A, 10 x 2
RV-10 2.0 N46VT 2015
KSMQ Somerset Airport NJ

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

why BMA? no updates, no support , no repairs. I know the guy ho flew their 

tests and he had three different systems in the same airplane and always had 

at least one fail per flight. I suggest trying someone who is already/still 

in business.

---

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: Six Year Anniversary

Dynon is a good option from what I have seen thus far, free updates, great 

support/forum; have replaced parts for me with no "restocking fees".  If the 

forum is any indication of the failure rate they have a low rate and good 

customer following.

Haven't flown behind one (yet) but I know of one -10 that has a Dynon and he 

has had good things to say about it- he has had it installed 4 years without 

a hiccup.

Jeff;

Don't worry about the instruments until the very end. Get the plane 

completely built, come up with what you want and wire everything up, wire 

the instruments last.

--------------------------------------------------

From: "DLM" <dlm46007(at)cox.net>

Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:24 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Six Year Anniversary



[quote] 



 why BMA? no updates, no support , no repairs. I know the guy ho flew their 

 tests and he had three different systems in the same airplane and always 

 had at least one fail per flight. I suggest trying someone who is 

 already/still in business.

 ---

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