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Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Ron, you're right when you said........ "Besides that, you can go anywhere

you want if you put it on your program

letter or fax the FSDO".

You're right, I can go anywhere I want "provided I submit a FAX to the FAA".

But it's a hassle to have to do it all the time. I don't like it but most of

all don't see what purpose it serves. What good does it do for the FAA to

get all these FAX's all the time? I've yet to hear a good explanation for

this requirement.

Frank

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



OK, OK, Brian, I get your point. I hope you had a good laugh? I just wish

there was something more I could do about the situation. It just tweaks my

hide to have to deal with it while others don't. I'm glad they have a

reasonable set of operating rules. Now how can I get those too? Or am I just

pissin' in the wind here?

Frank

--

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



DaBear

I can appreciate what you are saying. Consider the events that happened to

me last week. Someone called a buddy of mine and asked him to do some

formation work with him. My buddy called me and asked if I wanted to go too.

Well, his buddy called his other buddy who called his other buddy and before

you know it there were 9 YAKS all gathered together for some formation

flying practice. It turned into an unplanned mini formation clinic (I had a

great time by-the-way --- met my first woman YAK-52 owner there, just wish

she were single  In a sense this was an EVENT that I had no knowledge of

happening until I got there. How could I have included this on my program

letter and how would it have benefited the FAA to know this? What the hell

are they going to do with this knowledge? What if we all decided to go to

the next airport 301 nautical miles away from home and the Podunk airport we

were at didn't have a FAX? I can live with the restriction but it is a

dammed hassle.....I'd rather do without it.

Frank

--

Frank

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 69

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Cy

You said..... "In fact, the sheer number of

airplanes in the exhibition category in recent years prompted the FAA to

refine the certification of these aircraft."

That may be true but I'm going to ask you WHY? And I want an answer!

Frank

--

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Frank,

Good explanation or not, it's in your ops limits. None of us like it. And

unless you own a pre-moratorium aircraft, if you follow the rule, unless

you're attending a formal event to exhibit the airplane as defined in the

8130.2F or its predecessors, you're not suppose to be flying outside of the

300NM proficiency area. Just sending a fax to the FSDO saying your flying

to such and such airport doesn't quite follow the rule.

You certainly don't have to believe what I say. So call your FSDO inspector

and discuss it with him and see what he says. Ask for his interpretation of

the section of 8130.2x pertaining to certification of aircraft in the

exhibition category (the paragraph I quoted in a previous message in this

thread) and be sure to specify Group III, under 800 horsepower.

Lastly, contact EAA's Warbirds of America and speak to someone in government

affairs and ask them for their interpretation on the subject.

Dennis

-

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Whoa! I did some research and now you are demanding a reason? Get Real! I

thought I did you a favor. Thanks a bunch!

As I remember the FAA wanted to stop ALL importation of all third world

non-certified airplanes. The EAA got the ban lifted with restrictions. With

out the restrictions, no imports, period.

You should thank those that made it possible for you to have your plane.

---

L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Three hours without falling out of the sky is a " rigirous (sic) FAA

certication process"? Having a designated examiner measure the height of

your N numbers is a " rigirous (sic) FAA certication process"? Sure it's

fun to whine about the rules, but have you every talked to a foreigner about

what they have to go through to fly a non-certified plane? The poor

frosted-brain Canadians go through far more than you do and they're the envy

of Europeans who typically spend two years getting permission to fly a

homebuilt. Send the fax and then go where you want to go. Of course it's

stupid, but it's not that difficult to comply.

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



Frank Haertlein wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

L39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



We have been through this before and you can't seem to grasp that FAA order

8130.2F only applies to people who want an airworthiness certificate. It

has no legal standing whatsoever for people who have an airworthiness

certificate. The ops limits apply to an aircraft holding an airworthiness

certificate. FAA orders specify what goes on the ops limits when you get

them, but changing the orders doesn't change what the previously-certified

planes can do.

And yes I can go see my grandmother if I send the FAA a fax because there is

an "event" that happens to be taking place whereever she lives whenever I

want to go. Events are what experimental-exhibition planes are for. If

you're not any better at finding "events" than you are at interpreting the

regs, then I presume your flying is considerably more limited than mine.

The only real limitation is that you can't go to foreign countries and

that's an ICAO thing rather than an FAA thing.

Lazarus Long was right.

---

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



cgalley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 
Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
_________________
Brian Lloyd 


brian-yak at lloyd dot com


+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)





I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .


- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

JOE HOWSE

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 140
Location: DUNCAN BC CANADA

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS



This poor frosted brain Canadian has NO geographical

restriction as to where I can fly with my

Canadian registered CJ6 in Canada and for any reason!

Furthermore, I have been getting SFA ( special flight authority ) to fly

into the US for airshows etc.

just by asking for a general area, eg. US northwest for 6 month periods.

Joe

_________________
J.C. HOWSE

fish(at)aviation-tech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

Frank & Group,



The thing to do is to join organizations like RPA, CJAA, EAA & AOPA. 



If all RPA members are menbers of EAA, the RPA could set EAA Policy and prority.

Then if all EAA members were members of AOPA, the EAA could help sway AOPA proirity.

It becomes a snowball effect where the numbers look larger then they are. (Example

RPA's (300 members) are also members of EAA. They then help set EAA policy and

goals using the clout of EAA (5000, members), to influnance AOPA (300,000 members)

goals and clout.)



That is how small groups get there laws passed against the majority who does

not care or pay attention. Politicians worry about numbers of people who vote(last

election less then 30% of registered voters, voted). 



Fly Safe

John Fischer

 	  Quote: 	
		  > ----Original Message Follows----

> From: DaBear <dabear(at)damned.org>

> Reply-To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:24:23 -0500

>

> 

>

> Frank,

>

> You are very funny.

>

> AOPA has over 300,000 members.  They are one of the biggest "aviation

> lobby" organizations.  A key part of their lobby agenda is to get rid of


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > pop up TFRs and reduce/eliminate the ADIZ around DC.  Now they are about


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > 1% of the US population and they can't get movement.

>

> RPA has approximately 300 members.  We are about 0.000001% of the US

> population.  If you think we have ANY real lobby power with the federal

> government, (without a couple million to buy a few congress critters),

> you have received a serious head injury and you should immediately seek

> advanced medical care.  I don't know anyone who has a warbird, that

> likes the current program letter issue, however it really isn't a big

> deal to comply and fly where ever you want (For those non-jet warbirds)

> by just sending the FAA a fax.

>

> DaBear

> Frank Haertlein wrote:

>

> >

> <yak52driver(at)earthlink.net>

> >

> >Yakkers

> >

> >AOPA......................

> >EAA.......................

> >NRA.......................

> >Warbirds of America ......

> >CJAA .....................

> >The Sierra Club ..........

> >CRPA .....................

> >AARP .....................

> >AMA ......................

> >AFL-CIO ..................

> >Sport Fisherman's Assoc...

> >American Hunter...........

> >NOW.......................

> >

> >And a thousand other organizations.........

> >

> >All have political representation to look out for their interests.

> >

> >RPA ?????????

> >

> >Vote in the following poll

> >

> >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=776

> >

> >

> >If your warbird is more than 800 horsepower you may only take off and 

> >land

> >from your home airport.

> >

> >If your warbird is a jet you may only take off and land from your home

> >airport.

> >

> >You may not operate your aircraft more than 300 nautical miles from your


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > >home airport.

> >

> >You must submit a program letter every year.

> >

> >To deviate from the above you must FAX the FAA for each instance.

> >

> >These are actual FAA rule. I'm asking what FAA genius thought them up and


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > >why?

> >

> >Don't you want to change stupid rules like these?

> >

> >

> >

> _________________________________________________________________

> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>

>

> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

>

>

dsavarese(at)elmore.rr.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

Ok Ron.  You keep doing what your doing and interpreting the Order and your 

ops limits any way you want to.



Obviously you believe the only limitation is you can't go to foreign 

countries.  I'd like to suggest you contact either your local FSDO inspector 

or the EAA  or both and ask them if that is the only restriction and also 

what the term EVENT means by the FAA's definition.



Are you implying your aircraft does not have an airworthiness certificate? 

Just because it says "special airworthiness certificate" doesn't change the 

fact that it is an airworthiness certificate.



Personally, I could care less where you go with your airplane.  My main 

concern is that we don't bring attention to our Exhibition category 

airplanes by abusing the rules under which our aircraft received their 

airworthiness certificate.

Dennis



---

cgalley(at)qcbc.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:27 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

You are correct about the government entities.



I thought I was helping Frank and all I got was a demand like I was his 

servant. "Shoot the messenger" type of response. I had no part in the entire 

problem that the FAA created. I just tried to explain it the best I could in 

a helpful way.  Obviously that didn't assuage Frank on his mission.



Cy Galley - Chair,

Air Emergency Aircraft Repair

A Service Project of Chapter 75

EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC

EAA Sport Pilot



---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

Well gang away for a day and 51 emails. Almost all on the FAA. Well guys from having to do something similar here in Lower Alabama not aviation related, you need a political action group. 

So, you want to change things? You need to get organized and hire a Lobbist. Yes, I said a Lobbist! The way you get things changed on Capital Hill is to form a PAC (political action group), belly up to the bar with your bucks, and pay your lobbist (a nice percentage) to spread your bucks around the transportation commitee. That way attention will be given to your plight. 

You are correct, they do look at the number of people willing to contribute money to the cause. They look at what was donated to PAC by who. Then they give credance to your plight! 

That $1000 donation someone spoke of giving to their local congressionalrepresentative, given by yourself was spitting in the wind. They took it..oh yes! Did it make a difference, not for you it did not! Did help his/her re-election coffer though! 

A lobbist... the legal form of bribery! You got to pay if you want to change the way you play! Little bucks don't talk...BIG BUCKS do!

Doc



--

BitterlichMG(at)cherrypoi
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

Frank,    

Brian Lloyd's explanation of how the govt. works... especially concerning paperwork, is of course dead on accurate, and there is no refuting his explanation.    

Next, having been associated or involved with our Govt. for the last 36 years or so, there is one rule that I have learned that I apply every day:   

"It is always easier to beg for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission."     

Now there are some obvious dangers when applying this rule to the FAA, but I still think it applies.  NEVER call any person in Govt. and ask them for permission to do ANYTHING.  The answer will always be "NO", because it is usually the SAFE answer and is less likely to get the person being asked into any kind of trouble, and that is always their main concern.    

The suggestion of generating the "Program List from Hell" so that you are always on the way to, or from, someplace... is an especially good suggestion..... I am going to follow that one myself.    

Lastly, I have my "AMENDMENT TO PROGRAM LETTER" form stored in my computer.  I bring it up, type in just the destination of where I want to go, and my computer faxes it to the FAA automatically.  It's a 15 second process. I send them in even when I am NOT going anyplace!  The more the merrier.  I intentionally OVERLOAD the FSDO with these things... over and over and over again.  Why?  Because I also know that the guy getting them will become so darn tired of receiving that crap and having to refill the paperbin on his FAX, that eventually he will just start throwing them away.  Works every time.  Then... someday when I go someplace and do not BOTHER sending the FAX.... if for some weird reason they call me and say: "YOU WERE SEEN OVER 300 MILES FROM BASE AND WE DID NOT GET A FAX", I can look at them all innocent like and say: "Well gee, I sent it, you must have lost it... have you gotten any others from me in the past?  How many by the way?"  The answer to THAT question will make them look stupid and they will know that and drop the issue like a hot rock.    

Yes, I have heard people pound the table claiming that there must be an OFFICIAL EVENT for the destination I am listing... but I have sent a whole lost of AMENDMENTS in and have yet to hear of anyone being called by the FAA to ask about it.  In this case, once again the above rule applies.  Fight the FAA only what you have no other choice... never fight them just to tilt at the darn windmill, even if it does make you feel better.    

Mark Bitterlich 

N50YK  

 

 

 

  

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Frank Haertlein" <yak52driver(at)earthlink.net>   

Ron, you're right when you said........ "Besides that, you can go anywhere 

you want if you put it on your program  

letter or fax the FSDO".   

You're right, I can go anywhere I want "provided I submit a FAX to the FAA". 

But it's a hassle to have to do it all the time. I don't like it but most of 

all don't see what purpose it serves. What good does it do for the FAA to 

get all these FAX's all the time? I've yet to hear a good explanation for 

this requirement.   

Frank

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

cgalley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You are correct about the government entities.

 

 I thought I was helping Frank and all I got was a demand like I was his

 servant. "Shoot the messenger" type of response. I had no part in the

 entire problem that the FAA created. I just tried to explain it the best

 I could in a helpful way.  Obviously that didn't assuage Frank on his

 mission.


	


I know Cy. I know what you were trying to say and I also understand

Frank's frustration. When one is feeling that level of frustration a lot

of what gets said feels like negativity directed at the recipient of the

discussion. He's bent and you inadvertently caught the backlash.



Then there is the, "hey, if you abuse the spirit of the rule the FAA

might take notice and come after me too," point of view. Do you know

just how sad that sounds? It makes me think of that old joke:



Q: How fast do you have to run to get away from an angry bear that is

chasing you?



A: Faster than your buddy.



What I think we *really* want is to find a way to tame or kill the bear

so that it doesn't ever chase me or anyone else again.



And on the practical matter, the inspector at my FSDO was the one who

suggested that I fill my program letter with events all over the country

so that I can be "enroute" to an event no matter where I am or what I am

doing. It eliminated the need for faxes at the expense of a little more

time writing up my program letter. Just don't list an event in

California on Saturday and an event in Virginia the next day. That looks

awfully silly.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

--

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The way you get things changed on Capital Hill is to

 form a PAC (political action group), belly up to the bar with your

 bucks, and pay your lobbist (a nice percentage) to spread your bucks

 around the transportation commitee. That way attention will be given

 to your plight. You are correct, they do look at the number of people

 willing to contribute money to the cause. They look at what was

 donated to PAC by who. Then they give credance to your plight! That

 $1000 donation someone spoke of giving to their local

 congressionalrepresentative, given by yourself was spitting in the

 wind. They took it..oh yes! Did it make a difference, not for you it

 did not! Did help his/her re-election coffer though! A lobbist... the

 legal form of bribery! You got to pay if you want to change the way

 you play! Little bucks don't talk...BIG BUCKS do!


	


Hey Doc, my father is a retired member of the House of Representatives.

he is now a "consultant" to companies looking to be heard by their

representatives. I actually know quite a bit about this subject, having

been involved with it for only a little less time than I have been

flying (35 vs. 37 years).



The funny thing is just how ineffective the high-priced lobbyists are.

Oh they get in the door and they make things look good to their clients

but they don't actually accomplish much. Most are just a sink for their

clients' money. If you have the time you can be more effective running

your own lobbying effort. The key thing is to understand quid-pro-quo

and show the congress critter how you can help him/her with what she

wants as well. That is the hard part. My father is extremely effective

at this because he has a fair bit of political capital saved up and he

knows whose quid to quo.



For example, when the "guns in the cockpit" thing came up after 9/11, he

went to Norm Minetta as he and Norm are friends and were congress

critters together. His lobbying effort was very effective. We even

arranged to have Norm's son, and airline pilot, go through training at

Front Sight and then report back to his father on the quality and

effectiveness of the training. Very few lobbyists can do something like

that.



(It is funny tho' just how anti-gun this administration is. Or maybe it

is not so funny. I think it is hilarious when they point out that they

are more of a friend to the gun owner than the opposition as they court

the vote of the NRA members. But I digress.)



You are right that campaigns cost more and an amount that was hugely

significant 20 years ago is considered modest today. Still, you would

also be amazed at how far a large personal donation goes. It will

definitely get the member's time if you ask for it. The major reason

that pilots get short shrift is that most are apolitical and the

politicians know it.



And above all these people want to be reelected.



So, what is the goal here? I know what I want. I want the agencies

reined in until they are "public servants" again, not "public masters,"

but that is a tall order. That will take more than the RPA and a lobbyist.



Oh, and you will find that your elected official will not go head-on

against an agency. Remember that the way we get administrative law is

that the legislative branch creates general law and then leaves it up to

the agency to fill in the fiddling details. Administrative law  is the

fiddling details. No congress critter is going to rise up in righteous

indignation over your LoL. What they will rise up in righteous

indignation over is the wholesale unfair treatment at the hands of an

agency out of control.



So how do you prove that? They are going to have a hearing and at one

point ask about certification for aircraft like ours and the counsel for

the FAA will have a good, plausible-sounding explanation. What is our

response going to be? How will changing the LoL improve safety and save

money? If we could prove that the FAA discards our faxes then we have a

point that indicates that they don't really care. You could probably get

the congress to "ask a favor" of the agency, "in light of the paperwork

reduction act, yadda yadda," and get rid of the requirement for FAX

notification. Perhaps. Lots of work there.



But it doesn't do anything to really solve the problem -- governmental

abuse of power.



-- 

Brian Lloyd                         2243 Cattle Dr.

brian-yak at lloyd dot com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: POINTY HEADED FAA ADMINISTRATORS

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