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N777TY

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

Just trying to start the troubleshooting of a strange issue I have in my plane.  When I push PTT button while COM2 is selected, I don't get that click at the beginning of transmission...  The radio transmits just fine.. just doesn't give that click.  COM1 works fine.  Both are using same PTT button and are wired into the PSE 8000 audio panel. (COM1 is Garmin 530W and COM2 is Garmin 430W)



Since the radio works fine it's a somewhat lower priority issue, but it does cause a problem when flying at night... I cannot turn on the runway lights with the second radio because the click isn't there... 



Tried swapping antenna leads but that didn't help... haven't tried anything else yet.. looking for some ideas..  Thanks!

_________________
RV-7A
N777TY

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 10:32 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Just trying to start the troubleshooting of a strange issue I have 

in my plane.  When I push PTT button while COM2 is selected, I don't 

get that click at the beginning of transmission...  The radio 

transmits just fine.. just doesn't give that click.  COM1 works 

fine.  Both are using same PTT button and are wired into the PSE 

8000 audio panel. (COM1 is Garmin 530W and COM2 is Garmin 430W)



Since the radio works fine it's a somewhat lower priority issue, but 

it does cause a problem when flying at night... I cannot turn on the 

runway lights with the second radio because the click isn't there...



Tried swapping antenna leads but that didn't help... haven't tried 

anything else yet.. looking for some ideas..  Thanks!


	


    Are you expecting to get an audible click from the

    radio itself? I think the use of electro-mechanical

    relays common to transceivers for 50 years have

    been replaced with all solid state switching. If

    the radio is working, it's probably performing as

    advertised.



    Bob . . .

N777TY

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: No click when pushing PTT

Yes, I'm expecting a click..   Considering that the other one which is same technology (ie, not a case of old vs. new) I'd think the expectation is reasonable   Don't remember last time I ran into this situation in any plane ... so what I'm experiencing on COM2 is not typical..  Looking for ideas what to look at..

_________________
RV-7A
N777TY

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 07:02 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Yes, I'm expecting a click..   Considering that the other one which 

is same technology (ie, not a case of old vs. new) I'd think the 

expectation is reasonable   Don't remember last time I ran into 

this situation in any plane ... so what I'm experiencing on COM2 is 

not typical..  Looking for ideas what to look at..


	


      Maybe I missed something . . . is the radio

      misbehaving in any other way that being

      free of audible noises when you hit the

      PTT button?



      Bob . . .

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

Bob;



I think you might have missed the part where he said that his com 2 radio

will not activate pilot controlled lighting whereas his com 1 will. He is

associating the "missing click" with the inability to activate the lighting

systems. Other than this one item it operates "normally"



Bob McC



[quote] --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

N777TY

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: No click when pushing PTT

Yes, the radio works fine otherwise (as in, it transmits fine).  COM1 produces the click (hence I can turn on the runway lights).  COM2 doesn't do that.  It's not audible, and consequently lights don't come on.. 



I can hear the click on COM1 (and as a result, lights can be turned on, for example)..

_________________
RV-7A
N777TY

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:39 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

On 2/14/2011 8:58 PM, N777TY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Yes, the radio works fine otherwise (as in, it transmits fine).  COM1 produces the click (hence I can turn on the runway lights).  COM2 doesn't do that.  It's not audible, and consequently lights don't come on..



 I can hear the click on COM1 (and as a result, lights can be turned on, for example)..



 --------

 RV-7A

 N777TY

I would expect the light control radio to trigger on just the carrier, 
	


but for troubleshooting purposes you might try synthesizing a click 

verbally while holding the xmit button for each trigger, & see if the 

light control radio would respond to that, assuming that it really needs 

to see audio on the carrier.



I'd also ask the control radio's mfgr about whether it just listens for 

carrier or not.



Charlie

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 08:58 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Yes, the radio works fine otherwise (as in, it transmits 

fine).  COM1 produces the click (hence I can turn on the runway 

lights).  COM2 doesn't do that.  It's not audible, and consequently 

lights don't come on..



I can hear the click on COM1 (and as a result, lights can be turned 

on, for example)..


	


    When you say 'transmits fine' do I presume that

    you can communicate with some distant facility?

    If on the ground, can you talk to say a distant

    aircraft and the pilot reports strong signal on

    either radio?



    Suggest you get a rough reading on power output.

    You can do this with the most rudimentary of

    SWR meters if you don't have access to a real

    wattmeter. Use the meter to check the #1 system

    and set the device for a full scale, forward

    reading on #1 then move it to #2 without changing

    the calibration.



    Talking to another airplane in the hangar or

    to a local hand held might appear to be just

    fine when in fact, transmitted power output is

    a tiny fraction of what it should be.



    Bob . . .

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not

transmitting...  If you have another radio close by you can test the

transmitter is operating.  An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years

ago was to  have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely

unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic.  If the tube

lights up the transmitter is active.  Of course you can also see if you are

putting out any power by inserting an SWR meter in the antenna feed line.

In this case where you are only looking for the presence of power the

cheapest of SWR meters will suffice.



As Bob said, gone are the days when there were mechanical relays happily

chattering open and closed with every transmission.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would expect the light control radio to trigger on just the 

carrier, but for troubleshooting purposes you might try synthesizing 

a click verbally while holding the xmit button for each trigger, & 

see if the light control radio would respond to that, assuming that 

it really needs to see audio on the carrier.



I'd also ask the control radio's mfgr about whether it just listens 

for carrier or not.


	


    If the lighting control system needs audio, it would

    be a published feature. Some of the early lighting

    control systems were jury-rigged onto the facility's

    unicom radio. It was a circuit that needed to see

    a sweeping frequency tone that pilots were expected

    to generate by whistling.



    I haven't seen one of those in service in 30 years.

    They're all carrier operated now and generally have

    their own dedicated receiver.



    I would certainly resolve the power output question

    first.



    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:52 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



 I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not

 transmitting...  If you have another radio close by you can test the

 transmitter is operating.  An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years

 ago was to  have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely

 unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic.  If the tube

 lights up the transmitter is active. 	


    Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the

    little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around.



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



    They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either

    within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since

    then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high-

    current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the

    circuitry but will still light up when held in close

    proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna.



    Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be

    limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more.

    One is looking for an RF field on the order of

    75 volts or more to capacitively excite these

    lamps into visible activity.



    The very first transmitter I built



  http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da 



    had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side

    of the tank coil and could be used to tune the

    transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

    this as-published diagram?



    Bob . . .

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etienne.phillips(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:11 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits at line voltage?



On 15 February 2011 16:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

[quote]    this as-published diagram?



    Bob . . .

  [b]

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

#1 The chassis is directly connected to the line.

 #2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line.

 #3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and the chassis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line.

  

 More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout.

  

 Bob McC

 

   Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:49:32 -0600

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: No click when pushing PTT



At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not

transmitting...  If you have another radio close by you can test the

transmitter is operating.  An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years

ago was to  have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely

unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic.  If the tube

lights up the transmitter is active. 	


   Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the

   little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around.



[img]cid:.0[/img]



   They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either

   within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since

   then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high-

   current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the

   circuitry but will still light up when held in close

   proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna.



   Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be

   limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more.

   One is looking for an RF field on the order of

   75 volts or more to capacitively excite these

   lamps into visible activity.



   The very first transmitter I built



http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da 



   had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side

   of the tank coil and could be used to tune the

   transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

   this as-published diagram?



   Bob . . .

1af0ce65.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

5.47 KB

Viewed:

18059 Time(s)

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 09:16 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  #1 The chassis is directly connected to the line.

#2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line.

#3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and 

the chassis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line.



More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout.


	


    Yup . . . you're tied for first place.



    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

At 09:04 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits 

at line voltage?


	


    Right on!  I'd built a number of transformer-less

    circuits where injudicious wiring and positioning

    of switches could put a chassis at above ground

    potentials.



    Since all  ham gear was expected to be well

    grounded for reasons of antenna performance,

    it made sense to use the SAME ground as the

    power return for the device. Make the line-cord

    a one-wire lead that was switched. If the

    gizmo didn't power up, reverse the plug. But

    in no case was the properly grounded system at

    risk for presenting a shock hazard.



    So called AC/DC radios popular at the time

    were always housed in a wood or plastic case.

    Quite often, the line-connected 'ground' within

    the appliance was floating from the chassis.

    When launching a line-powered, transformer-less

    DIY project, it was good to understand such

    things.



    Good eye!



    Bob . . .

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

I’ll take a stab at it.

 

The crystal and the heater for the tube are both powered by 115VAC.

 

Considering the potential instability in both the voltage coming from the wall and possible changes in the frequency of the AC current it may be a bit edgy.  

 

Noel

 

Now give us the real reason.  Please!

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

Sent: February 15, 2011 11:20 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: No click when pushing PTT

 

At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not

transmitting...  If you have another radio close by you can test the

transmitter is operating.  An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years

ago was to  have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely

unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic.  If the tube

lights up the transmitter is active.



   Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the

   little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around.



[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CBCD27.530A1760[/img]



   They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either

   within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since

   then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high-

   current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the

   circuitry but will still light up when held in close

   proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna.



   Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be

   limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more.

   One is looking for an RF field on the order of

   75 volts or more to capacitively excite these

   lamps into visible activity.



   The very first transmitter I built



http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da 



   had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side

   of the tank coil and could be used to tune the

   transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

   this as-published diagram?



   Bob . . .

image001.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

5.47 KB

Viewed:

18051 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

Certainly a short across the 1 muff cap could cause that.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Etienne Phillips

Sent: February 15, 2011 11:35 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: No click when pushing PTT



 

I'll have a stab at it - when the switch is open, the chassis sits at line voltage?

On 15 February 2011 16:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

   this as-published diagram?



   Bob . . .

  	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7

  [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

Many years ago I had a radio/Amplifier which the chassis could be hot if it was plugged in that way you would get a terrible AC hum from the speakers...  I always put it down to the shielding on the tubes being hot.  Yes I did get several good roots from that thing until I realized that turning the plug around removed the AC hum.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum

Sent: February 15, 2011 11:46 AM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: No click when pushing PTT

 

#1 The chassis is directly connected to the line.

#2 the switch is in what is hopefully the ground side of the line.

#3 It's probably old enough that the line plug is not polarized and the chassis may be attached to the "hot" side of the line.

 

More than one person has been electrocuted with such a layout.

 

Bob McC

 



Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:49:32 -0600

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com

Subject: RE: Re: No click when pushing PTT



At 08:06 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote:

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



I would expect the first thing to do is to verify your radio is not

transmitting...  If you have another radio close by you can test the

transmitter is operating.  An old trick we used to do with taxicabs years

ago was to  have someone hold a fluorescent tube (tube only completely

unplugged) close to the transmitting antenna and key the mic.  If the tube

lights up the transmitter is active.



   Yeah, that was the primary reason for keeping the

   little NE-2 or NE-51, neon bulbs around.



[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CBCD28.70ED58E0[/img]



   They were handy for 'sniffing' strong RF either

   within a transmitter or out on the antenna. Since

   then transmitters have morphed to low-voltage, high-

   current architectures. The lamps won't sniff within the

   circuitry but will still light up when held in close

   proximity to the tip of a 1/4-wave antenna.



   Haven't tried it but I suspect it will still be

   limited to getting excited at 5 watts or more.

   One is looking for an RF field on the order of

   75 volts or more to capacitively excite these

   lamps into visible activity.



   The very first transmitter I built



http://tinyurl.com/4hwa2da 



   had an NE-2 permanently attached to the hot side

   of the tank coil and could be used to tune the

   transmitter. Can anyone spot a risk-issue in

   this as-published diagram?



   Bob . . .

image001.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

5.47 KB

Viewed:

18044 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

N777TY

Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: No click when pushing PTT

Y'all lost me there 



Anyways, back to square one.  The radio works just fine... it's been installed for a little over 2 years and never had issues communicating with anyone (even distant facilities).  I acquired the plane last summer and this click was never there.. so I can only assume it was like this from day one.. but have no way of confirming this.   



For clarification -- this is a certified plane that's been flying for a long time.. not a homebuilt sitting in my garage..   This radio allows me perfectly normal "5 by 5" communication with anyone on frequency.. there have never been any issues with clarity nor strength of normal voice transmission..  It just doesn't click... that's all.

_________________
RV-7A
N777TY

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: No click when pushing PTT

On 02/15/2011 11:32 PM, N777TY wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This radio allows me perfectly normal "5 by 5" communication with anyone on frequency.. there have never been any issues with clarity nor strength of normal voice transmission..  It just doesn't click... that's all.


	




	I've been trying to figure out what this "click" is that you indicate

happens on COM1.  I don't remember ever getting a click on the radios

I've used.  Even new solid state handhelds will trigger the runway

lighting, and they (or at least mine) doesn't make any noise at all when

pressing the transmit button, and I do not remember an audible click

being heard on a receiving radio when transmitting on the handheld.



	I have no real data to back this statement up, but my gut tells me that

the "click" or lack of is simply a red herring and has nothing to do

with being able to activate the runway lights.



	Just a passing thought, have you tried to activate the runway lights

with this radio at a different airport?  Just wondering if there might

be something a bit off with the receiver at your local airport that

might be causing the issue.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/



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