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Gascolator
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: Gascolator

Lynn tripped me up when I mentioned 45° AN hardware in  an earlier post.  What got me going on that was a bit of web research on  the correct angle as I had forgotten.  The reason I mention it is that in  my searching, I found that there are 45° AN flared fittings.  Don't know  how common or where to get them but the article was about knowing what you  have.  I simply took the 50/50 guess as to which flare angle is  ours and lost again.  There is an Indian casino close by, now everyone  should know why I have never been there - enough drain on the bank account  already finishing up another Model IV.

  

 Lowell

  



  From: Guy Buchanan (gebuchanan(at)cox.net) 

 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:57 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: Gascolator

 



On 4/15/2011 10:35 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:   	  Quote: 	
		  Has some rebel out there tried to use a 45° flare on an *experimental* aircraft?.....hint: notice the word    experimental.  I realize that if you have an "real" aircraft part with a    37° flare on it, you have to match it, but otherwise what is sacred about    37°?   (other than selling us a special tool)  	


Lynn,

    What is sacred about 37 degrees is  matching AN hardware, nothing else. 45 degrees for plumbing hardware, 37 for AN.  What happens if you mix is mostly that they leak. What happens if you decide to  honk on it and form fit the flare depends on the tubing you're using. If T6 then  you'll probably just bust up the seats and threads. If T0, then you'll probably  modify the flare to fit. Nothing sacred about AN hardware except that it's a  good bit lighter than brass,      is stronger  than plastic, and looks cool. (Most important.)



         

Guy Buchanan 

Scoutmaster – Troop 680 

760.809.6145 

scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org) 

  

www.troop680.org 

 



[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: Gascolator

I'm gonna take a WAG here and that is that the 37° for aircraft is  

because that is a less dramatic flare than a 45°, therefore less apt  

to split the harder grades of metals being flared. Anybody know the  

history of the 37 versus 45? Somebody must have come up with a pretty  

good reason to make a change, eh?



And, Guy, I would not suggest mixing the two in any one joint, but  

I'd be rebel enough to use both angles of flares at different  

locations on the same experimental airplane....clearly marked, of  

course.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm)

Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006)





On Apr 15, 2011, at 3:19 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lynn tripped me up when I mentioned 45° AN hardware in an earlier  

 post.  What got me going on that was a bit of web research on the  

 correct angle as I had forgotten.  The reason I mention it is that  

 in my searching, I found that there are 45° AN flared fittings.   

 Don't know how common or where to get them but the article was  

 about knowing what you have.  I simply took the 50/50 guess as to  

 which flare angle is ours and lost again.  There is an Indian  

 casino close by, now everyone should know why I have never been  

 there - enough drain on the bank account already finishing up  

 another Model IV.



 Lowell



 From: Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:57 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Gascolator



 On 4/15/2011 10:35 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> Has some rebel out there tried to use a 45° flare on an  

> *experimental* aircraft?.....hint: notice the word experimental.   

> I realize that if you have an "real" aircraft part with a 37°  

> flare on it, you have to match it, but otherwise what is sacred  

> about 37°?   (other than selling us a special tool)



 Lynn,

     What is sacred about 37 degrees is matching AN hardware,  

 nothing else. 45 degrees for plumbing hardware, 37 for AN. What  

 happens if you mix is mostly that they leak. What happens if you  

 decide to honk on it and form fit the flare depends on the tubing  

 you're using. If T6 then you'll probably just bust up the seats and  

 threads. If T0, then you'll probably modify the flare to fit.  

 Nothing sacred about AN hardware except that it's a good bit  

 lighter than brass,      is stronger than plastic, and looks  

 cool. (Most important.)



 Guy Buchanan



 Scoutmaster – Troop 680



 760.809.6145



 scoutmaster(at)troop680.org



 www.troop680.org





 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// 

 www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// 

 forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/ 

 contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: Gascolator

That’s easy 37 is aircraft specific so they can charge you more it.



--

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Gascolator

Well for 40 bucks I can bite that bullet, I am getting a little tired of the $100 bullets.  The tool is on it's way.



As for the 37 vs 45 thing, my guess is that it is fractional.  I agree that it was to have less deformation to the point of damage.  I bet they were discussing it and someone said, lets reduce the angle by a sixth.  Arbitrary enough.  5/6 * 45 = 37.5

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: Gascolator

Lynn:



37deg allows more sealing surface for the same outside diameter flare.  As

you know it is easy to stretch metal but putting it back is like adding an

inch tot he 2x4 you just cut too short, next to impossible.  If you put a 45

deg flare on a 37 deg fitting the flare will have to crumple a bit to seat.

The crumpling will cause it to leak under low pressure.  That was one of the

things demonstrated to us in AME school. (AME = Aircraft Maintenance

Engineer)



Trying to put a 37 degree flare on a 45 degree fitting is almost as bad as

the seat again is reduced inside the fitting.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: Gascolator

Don’t feel too bad Lowell... I had to look it up too.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt

Sent: April 15, 2011 4:50 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Gascolator

 

Lynn tripped me up when I mentioned 45° AN hardware in an earlier post.  What got me going on that was a bit of web research on the correct angle as I had forgotten.  The reason I mention it is that in my searching, I found that there are 45° AN flared fittings.  Don't know how common or where to get them but the article was about knowing what you have.  I simply took the 50/50 guess as to which flare angle is ours and lost again.  There is an Indian casino close by, now everyone should know why I have never been there - enough drain on the bank account already finishing up another Model IV.



 



Lowell



 



From: Guy Buchanan (gebuchanan(at)cox.net) 



Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:57 AM



To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 



Subject: Re: Re: Gascolator



 



On 4/15/2011 10:35 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote: 

Has some rebel out there tried to use a 45° flare on an *experimental* aircraft?.....hint: notice the word experimental.  I realize that if you have an "real" aircraft part with a 37° flare on it, you have to match it, but otherwise what is sacred about 37°?   (other than selling us a special tool) 



Lynn,

    What is sacred about 37 degrees is matching AN hardware, nothing else. 45 degrees for plumbing hardware, 37 for AN. What happens if you mix is mostly that they leak. What happens if you decide to honk on it and form fit the flare depends on the tubing you're using. If T6 then you'll probably just bust up the seats and threads. If T0, then you'll probably modify the flare to fit. Nothing sacred about AN hardware except that it's a good bit lighter than brass,      is stronger than plastic, and looks cool. (Most important.)

Guy Buchanan

Scoutmaster – Troop 680

760.809.6145

scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org)

 

www.troop680.org

 

  	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c&nbsUse the Matronics List Features Navigator to & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,    --> http://www.matron===================http://forums.matronics.com     - List Contribution Web Site                    -Matt Dralle, href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] 	


  [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: Gascolator

Apparently some racing cars also use the 37 degree flare.



I guess they spend money too.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: Gascolator

We used to do things like the flare on a regular basis... The work at the FBO (in Canada AMO) was all contract work and billing out a flare would have been phohibitive.  We did certainly charge for anything we had to sign on though and it never ceased to amaze me that a fellow would think nothing of spending $1000.00 on an old truck but balk at a $500 bill on his $250,000 plane....  go figure. 

 

Commercial contracts were always better than private.  Commercial operators want their planes to be safe...   That doesn’t mean they want to throw money at the plane but they relaize flying is expensive and they past the cost on to their customers.

 

Noel

 

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of bob noffs

Sent: April 15, 2011 7:54 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Gascolator



 

at the field where i hangar the fbo charges $45/hr. he says that he can't even often do that or he will not get repeat business and he is very good.the shops around me charge $90 for snowmobile work and $100/hr for outboards. i can't ever imagine, under any circumstances asking the fbo to perform his profession for me without pay. this is what he does to keep the lights on at home, i just do it for fun.



           bob noffs



On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>



While it may be next to impossible to borrow one of these tools if you bring

the pieces to an FBO they will probably do the flares for you for a

reasonable price... maybe even free.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Gascolator

Here's a link to "Hints for Homebuilders" short video on using the high dollar 37.5 flare tool.  You can see why it is expensive.  This is the tool the local FBO mechanic let me use in his shop and showed me how to use it.



http://bcove.me/1y8pfd94

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: Gascolator

Understood, Noel, but I wasn't advocating mixing a 37 and a 45 in the  

same joint....I was merely wondering why did the aircraft industry  

adopt the 37° flare, and what is sacred about it?

Obviously, the automotive industry has managed to save a few lives  

using a 45° flare for a couple of years in their brake lines. etc.  

Not getting any answer that satisfied me, I went looking, and found  

this:



*********************

Background

AN stands for "Air Force-Navy Aeronautical Standard" and was an  

aviation fitting standard developed around WWII. The fitting featured  

a 37 degree mating angle which provided superior sealing compared to  

the common 45 degree fittings. The fittings also utilized a higher  

class of thread quality. Eventually the AN fittings saw widespread  

military use and a multiple manufacturers began producing the  

fittings, leading to quality problems. The Joint Industries Council  

(JIC), an industry organization, sought to standardize the  

specifications on this type of fitting and created the "JIC" fitting  

standard, a 37 degree fitting with a slightly lower class of thread  

quality than the military AN version. The SAE went on to adopt the  

JIC standard as well. As a result JIC or SAE 37 degree fittings are  

perfectly interchangeable with AN fittings, and while this may not be  

acceptable for military aviation use, for automotive use there is no  

downside other than perhaps mismatched color coordination as JIC  

fittings are not available in the pretty anodize aluminum colors.  

However this may be a worthy tradeoff considering the JIC fittings  

are a fraction of the price of their true "AN" counterparts. We mixed  

and matched in this article to show you their interchangeability.



3 key facts about AN fittings.

  Flare angle is 37°, not 45°

Interchangeable with JIC fittings

  Divide AN # by 16 to get inches

********************



Apparently some testing was done, and it was determined that the 37°  

flare will hold more pressure than the 45° flare...just how much more  

pressure wasn't revealed in what I read, but like a lot of other  

things, if it's a "little bit better" then the government/military  

will adopt it as gospel.



For myself, I'll accept the fact that the 37 holds more pressure, but  

will I ever see the need for that pressure in my homebuilt.....when  

the highest pressure in my plane is the brake lines, and they are  

made of plastic (nylon)?



Just for the record, I use 37° flares for the *2* fittings in my fuel  

system that require them...gravity feed fuel line to the Rotec TBI,  

subject to...what?....3 pounds of head pressure?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 35mm)

Status: flying...1096 hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Apr 16, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn:



 37deg allows more sealing surface for the same outside diameter  

 flare.  As

 you know it is easy to stretch metal but putting it back is like  

 adding an

 inch tot he 2x4 you just cut too short, next to impossible.  If you  

 put a 45

 deg flare on a 37 deg fitting the flare will have to crumple a bit  

 to seat.

 The crumpling will cause it to leak under low pressure.  That was  

 one of the

 things demonstrated to us in AME school. (AME = Aircraft Maintenance

 Engineer)



 Trying to put a 37 degree flare on a 45 degree fitting is almost as  

 bad as

 the seat again is reduced inside the fitting.



 Noel



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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:23 am Post subject: Gascolator

The reason I suspect outside of having more sealing surface, is what you

mentioned about not stretching the tubing as far and therefore not as

susceptible to cracking.



I also noticed the 45 degree pipe flare doesn't use or at least I haven't

seen one use a sleeve inside the B-Nut. 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Gascolator

Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools: 

$55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree-AN,2931.html

$40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a

$16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/B004FEJF2Q



I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare.



- Mike

Model I w/532

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: Gascolator

Mike, I have 2 cheap 45 degree flaring tools one that will do double flares. I knew there had to be a similar inexpensive 37 degree tool. Thanks for the source. I ordered the Great Neck model just to have on hand at that price. Maybe I should have ordered the double flare model. Any of you guys use a double flare?

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuilt

 Rockford, IL 

 On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 9:40 AM, mikeperkins <michael.perkins(at)rauland.com (michael.perkins(at)rauland.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mikeperkins" <michael.perkins(at)rauland.com (michael.perkins(at)rauland.com)>

 

Here are some inexpensive 37.5 degree flaring tools:

$55 - http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Standard-Flaring-Tool-37-Degree-AN,2931.html

 $40 - http://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-23332-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000X4K9KO/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a

$16 - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Neck-Degree-Flaring-Tool/dp/B004FEJF2Q

 

I have one similar to the $16 version and it's worked well over the years. Deburr the tubing end, apply a little grease, then flare.



- Mike

Model I w/532





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-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

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