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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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If you have seen some of my other posts you know I am trying to learn a thing or two about composites and how to use them. So here is one thing I wanted to attempt, carbon fiber coating an existing part. The unfortunate thing is that you end up with the original part plus the weight of the carbon and the resin but it should look really good when complete and it is pretty simple to do.
So here is what one of the McBeans gas cap fairings looks like coated in 2x2 twill 3k carbon. It is still raw and will look better once the resin is applied and sanded (3 thin coats). It was applied by using black gel coat as the adhesive which fills in any gaps with black. So far it has been fun to do and I will be applying the resin here shortly so maybe that will change. Just thought some of you might like the look. By the way, I may or may not use that part, I am still playing with options.
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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 3/29/2011 2:54 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | So here is what one of the McBeans gas cap fairings looks like coated in 2x2 twill 3k carbon. It is still raw and will look better once the resin is applied and sanded (3 thin coats).
I'm guessing what you want is a carbon "looking" part as an end result.
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Not sure what parts you'd do that for on a Kitfox, but it might be fun.
Now the normal process would be to take the KLLC part and stick it to a
piece of melamine and then lay-up a female tool out of gel-coat and
fiberglass. You'd then vacuum bag male carbon parts out of the tool.
This gives you a really nice finish on the outside, one that can be
lightly sanded and then clear-coated for a spectacular finish. The hard
part of doing it your way is getting a final product without bubbles.
It's really hard to get a "solid" layer of resin over weave, without
milkiness or bubbles. And you can't really keep a lot of resin in a male
part because the resin squeezes out the male corners and pools in the
female corners. One thing you might try is to put your part in a vacuum
chamber after laying on a coat or resin. This will help force out any
trapped air. Good luck!
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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Guy, I am experiencing what you are talking about with the pooling and thinning but I think with sanding and thin layers it will work out. This is really more an experiment then anything. As for what parts I am trying to figure that out myself. A new engine (HKS) means a new instrument panel and that is going to be carbon fiber, there is just no way around that. I feel that if there is one huge chunk of carbon right there in the middle there should also be bits of it here and there for aesthetics. I think that fairing will actually look better in a red kevlar/black carbon weave since my plane has a big ole red stripe on it. I also think that it represents me pretty well to take something as low tech as the Fox and dress it up a little with some ridiculously high tech materials that ultimately fill no function. Any suggestions on non structural parts that would look good in carbon or carbon/kevlar would be appreciated.
 Question for the McBeans: Do you have any issues with me pulling a mold from one of the fairings I purchased from you and reproducing the part in carbon? The end result will be me having only one pair of fairings and I will destroy the mold. It is largely for practice with composites and I have no intention of having any more parts then I purchased from you, multiplying, modifying, or distributing these parts. It's just for me to play. 
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James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 3/30/2011 4:13 AM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | A new engine (HKS) means a new instrument panel and that is going to be carbon fiber, there is just no way around that. I feel that if there is one huge chunk of carbon right there in the middle there should also be bits of it here and there for aesthetics. I think that fairing will actually look better in a red kevlar/black carbon weave since my plane has a big ole red stripe on it. I also think that it represents me pretty well to take something as low tech as the Fox and dress it up a little with some ridiculously high tech materials that ultimately fill no function. Any suggestions on non structural parts that would look good in carbon or carbon/kevlar would be appreciated.
I have an instrument panel done in carbon, as well as a glare shield and
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seat pan. The instrument panel was made by gluing 3 1" pieces of MDF
together flatwise and then routing out the instrument panel's shape.
This was then glassed and faired into a quite passable mold. The glare
shield was made by carving styrofoam into the approximate shape to match
a couple of profiles, (one of which was the instrument panel,) and then
covering with carbon and filling and final shaping to make a nice female
mold and then pulling a carbon part. The nice thing is by coating it
with flat clear coat it made a really cool looking and functional glare
shield. The only problem with it is you have to post cure the tool to
about 140F, then re-fair it a couple of times, then cure the part at
about 140F, then let it sit in the sun out of the wind for a couple of
days so that it will withstand the intense heat generated while sitting
in the sun under the canopy. It gets bloody hot. The seat was done
simply by pulling a glass female from the original seat and then making
a carbon one. Still have all the molds.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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That sounds like a lot of fun projects Guy. Do you have any pictures of the molds and end products? I would love to see them. How many layers did you need to make the instrument panel rigid enough? Did you save any weight on the seat or was it primarily for the cool points?
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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:39 am Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 3/30/2011 4:25 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | That sounds like a lot of fun projects Guy. Do you have any pictures of the molds and end products? I would love to see them. How many layers did you need to make the instrument panel rigid enough? Did you save any weight on the seat or was it primarily for the cool points?
Sorry James, I'm going to be of no use to you whatsoever. The seat and
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instrument panel were built by the first builder, though I know they
were made from satin, probably five harness, 300g, and probably two
layers. The seat has reinforcing bands at the tubes and under each butt
of about double thickness. The seat saved weight and eliminated the old
"seat failure" bugaboo from way back. The instrument panel and glare
shield were for stiffness and "cool points", particularly the glare
shield, since it is clear-coated. (You can't see any carbon on the
panel, it's covered with wood veneer and nauga.) I've attached a picture
of the panel and my builder's log entries for the glare shield. No good
pictures of the glare shield, though, they're all in deep storage. Sorry.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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Guy, What kind of carbon monoxide decttor is that and where did you get it?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Guy Buchanan <gebuchanan(at)cox.net (gebuchanan(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 3/30/2011 4:25 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | That sounds like a lot of fun projects Guy. Do you have any pictures of the molds and end products? I would love to see them. How many layers did you need to make the instrument panel rigid enough? Did you save any weight on the seat or was it primarily for the cool points?
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Sorry James, I'm going to be of no use to you whatsoever. The seat and instrument panel were built by the first builder, though I know they were made from satin, probably five harness, 300g, and probably two layers. The seat has reinforcing bands at the tubes and under each butt of about double thickness. The seat saved weight and eliminated the old "seat failure" bugaboo from way back. The instrument panel and glare shield were for stiffness and "cool points", particularly the glare shield, since it is clear-coated. (You can't see any carbon on the panel, it's covered with wood veneer and nauga.) I've attached a picture of the panel and my builder's log entries for the glare shield. No good pictures of the glare shield, though, they're all in deep storage. Sorry.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 3/31/2011 2:20 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote: | Quote: | Guy, What kind of carbon monoxide decttor is that and where did you get it?
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Pat,
It's just a little thing I picked off the rack at the local aviation parts store. I pull in a lot of exhaust at times and so I've always had that little thing around to make sure I stay alive.
Guy Buchanan Normal Guy Buchanan 8 20 2010-09-24T17:53:00Z 2011-01-02T22:52:00Z 1 25 149 1 1 173 14.00 <![endif]--> 59 Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
[quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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rawheels
Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Westfield, IN
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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Well I am "finished" with the gas cap fairing in carbon but I can't get any good pictures right now. (here is a bad one) I will try tomorrow when the sun is out. It turned out pretty good although I sanded into the carbon a couple of times. In the end it looks good except for one nick which I will paint black. I also want to show one of the sheets I have laid up as a test panel, the weave is something else. It is a 1x1 weave made with 12k carbon so the TPI count is like 4. I plan on laying up an old piece of red carbon/kevlar tonight if it is not too mangled from a long storage and a couple moves.
Guy, what are those two black circles on your panel on either side of your compass? I have seen those on a lot of Fox panels but mine does not have them.
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James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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WOW James,
I think they turned out pretty nice!
Lloyd
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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Unfortunately there is no THEY, there is only the one. As I mentioned this was largely an experiment so I only did one of them so I could try something else with the other. I am pleased with it but I do not thing that carbon fiber would look all that good on top of a yellow wing. Now the carbon with red kevlar weave that I have I think might look pretty good with the red stripe on the plane. We will see. I just laid up an instrument panel sized piece of the red/black. Can't wait to see how it looks.
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James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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temco(at)telusplanet.net
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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James
I'll take a guess that they are shock mounts. However I'll defer to Guy for
the real answer.
Ted Palamarek
KF IV/912UL
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 4/4/2011 3:42 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | Guy, what are those two black circles on your panel on either side of your compass? I have seen those on a lot of Fox panels but mine does not have them.
They are lord mounts that pick up the two standard Kitfox panel mounts
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that drop back from the front window X-frame.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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If I am not mistaken my panel is bolted directly to those mounts.
So in an attempt to make a blank for my panel I used a mirror as the mold and layed up a beefy panel of one sheet carbon/Kevlar and two sheets of carbon. I then made a kiln of sorts out of pink insulating foam sheet and powered by a heat gun. It worked great and the panel was 140-160* every time I checked it. Problem is the mirror broke from the heat. I will see whether it damaged the blank when I pull it all apart later. Here's hoping.
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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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I finally got some time out in the garage to start pulling apart the panel so I decided to go ahead and make up a test panel with one of the blanks I made from carbon fiber. This piece was my first attempt at a full size panel lay up and was pretty full of imperfections. It is only two layers thick of carbon so it is pretty flimsy but it holds up well enough to get a good look at it. I still have green masking tape indicating where things will be installed such as switches, VHF, Xponder, fuses, and the EIS will go in the big blank spot on the right. I have spent a few weeks trying to lay out an aesthetic and functional panel and as many of you know that is not at all easy. I am happy with this layout and think I will only tweak it a little once I finalize what fabric I will be using. The first picture is the fabric I want to use if I can find more of it. I got this piece off Ebay about 7 years ago and I can not find it anywhere. And that is what I have been doing with composites lately.
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James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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James, Looks great. What resin are you using? Keep us posted on source you find for carbon fiber cloth.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 4:31 PM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>
I finally got some time out in the garage to start pulling apart the panel so I decided to go ahead and make up a test panel with one of the blanks I made from carbon fiber. This piece was my first attempt at a full size panel lay up and was pretty full of imperfections. It is only two layers thick of carbon so it is pretty flimsy but it holds up well enough to get a good look at it. I still have green masking tape indicating where things will be installed such as switches, VHF, Xponder, fuses, and the EIS will go in the big blank spot on the right. I have spent a few weeks trying to lay out an aesthetic and functional panel and as many of you know that is not at all easy. I am happy with this layout and think I will only tweak it a little once I finalize what fabric I will be using. The first picture is the fabric I want to use if I can find more of it. I got this piece off Ebay about 7 years ago and I can not find it anywhere. And that is what I have been doing wit!
h composites lately.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
now she lies in wait
Read this topic online here:
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ription,
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ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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James, Yes, that Dow 730 is the best sealer there is that I know of. Sorry about using UPS at $11 for shipping. I won't use them for such a small package again, although I do swear by their service. I looked at carbon fiber cloth on ebay after you mentioned it. There were 200 listings. If you can't find it there, good luck. What resin do you use on the carbon fiber?
Pat Reilly
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 5:33 PM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>
Honestly Pat, for the best quality on small quantity I have not found anything better then Ebay. I have also found very little in the way of fabric designs or styles elsewhere that are not on Ebay. And they were just weird. I bought that Red and black hybrid cloth a long time ago and just got around to really doing layups. Now I can't find that style fabric anywhere and I have spent a couple hours looking. Usually if you can't find something in that amount of time on the internet you probably wont find it. Or if you are like me you will get completely involved in some new information you found and end up starting a new project. [Laughing]
By the way the Dow worked great Pat. I did a hang test for 24 hours with fuel coming from a height of over 4 feet. I am confident enough to say that that is leak proof. Thanks again.
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James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
now she lies in wait
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Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: Carbon Kitfox Crafters |
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On 4/16/2011 2:31 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
| Quote: | The first picture is the fabric I want to use if I can find more of it. I got this piece off Ebay about 7 years ago and I can not find it anywhere. And that is what I have been doing wit!
h composites lately.
I like it a lot. I particularly like your use of tooling cloth, it's
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much more interesting than the usual plain weave or satin. I'd probably
tone down the gloss, though. (Man, that Kevlar is wild. I've never seen
anything like it.)
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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