Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Spraying questions

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:07 pm Post subject: Spraying questions

I am preparing to spraying the top coats (underside of elevators, then wings first!) and have a couple of simple questions I am using 2K acrylic Octoral PF131 high build primer and Dellfleet 350 top coat:



a) how to spray large areas like wings - whether better to work in squares or walk down the wing each time? My paint says cross coats and I am using the slow thinner.



b) do I need to let the primer dry ie 24 hours or is it better to spray sooner and get a better bond. I would guess dry would be best and fine sand off any tiny blemmishes.



Thanks

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:00 am Post subject: Spraying questions

Graeme, Not wanting to sound discouraging, but I think spraying is the one 

thing in the whole build that is worth getting a professional to do. It is 

so easy to make a poor job of it on first attempt, and so obvious 

thereafter, and so difficult to put straight if you don't get it quite 

right! But if you are intent on doing it I would suggest doing a complete 

job on say one tailplane first so that you can be happy with your technique 

before going on. I am sure others who know more about it will give you more 

specific advice, but my one tip would be to be meticulous to the point of 

paranoia in preparing the surface to absolute smoothness and mattness (ie 

none of the original shine of the moulded bits must remain)

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Spraying questions

Thanks David, yep its scary, I have started with the undersides of the tailplane and have already sprayed the Smoothprime and high build primer, The HVLP and modern paints are supposed to be less troublesome to use. Also, unlike polyuethanes, I understand Acrylic can be reworked more easily and are less hazardous.



Graeme

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: Spraying questions

Hello,



Having just completed the arduous procedure of a CLASSIC I concur with David: 



Save yourself a whack of money by doing the filling and contouring at your own shop. But then, leave the final priming/painting to the professionals. It does take many years to get really good at it. A painter intimately knows the paint, primers and fillers while spraying them on, while adjusting immediately for the daily changes of flow caused by changing humidity, temperature, etc. 

Having spent several weeks in a professional paint shop, finalizing filling and sanding I can attest that without precautions taken, spray painting/priming is a risky business for health, no matter what the labels say.

It took me many hours to fill and sand to ready-paint state, which included sanding stages after filling, Smooth Priming, Epoxy Priming. Lots of work but look at the money you save: at $50 shop hours I was quoted close to $10,000 to have this done.

Doing all the preparations myself, and sanding in between to paint ready state, the paining process took them only 10 hours to complete which I very happily paid the shop their professional rate for, plus the material. YES, I was wearing a mask during the entire process.



What worked for me was to do all the required work at home/shop myself: filling (Aeropoxy Light filler), followed by filling larger pinholes with quick setting putty (takes only one hour per side). Then Smooth Prime to fill all the small pin holes (rolling on is MUCH more economical than spraying as it "massages" the stuff in, effectively filling almost all pin holes - that stuff is amazing). I needed only 3 rolled on coats to fill the pinholes (not 6 as prescribed) and then sanded back. Everything cleans up with water, but wear a mask. I found including the cross-linker makes for better adhesion, no matter what they tell you now. 

Make sure you wait a week until that stuff completely dries - it sands easily. The BEST sanding tools I found were the DURA BLOCKS marketed in the US - I wasted much valuable time initially messing around with the EUROPA prescribed sanding blocks. DURA BLOCKS work amazingly and produce much more precise results with much less scratching the surface. I used an 12, 18 and 24 inch size polus a small soft block for the fine sanding and contours (yes, I built the wing fairings myself).The painter then applied an epoxy primer followed by a surface filler which I sanded back to 320 and then to 500grit in preparation for painting which took only a few hours.

  

Christoph Both

#223

Wolfville, Nova Scotia, Canada



--

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

neveyre(at)aol.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:44 pm Post subject: Spraying questions

Hi Graeme,

   Sorry to pee on your parade [ mixed metaphors ?] but the paint you are useing will not have enough ultraviolet block in it [ despite what the sales guy will tell you].

   It will only have enough to stop the pigment fading, offering no protection to the substrate [ epoxy]

   The clue is in the recommended / approved paint system paint code, UVR .

   Normal auto paints have no more than 5 or 6% protection at best, I am not familar with the paint you list, I guess it is a Transport vehicle product, which may have even less ?

   The UVR specs' claim something like 97%.

   In the back of the ''Blue Book'' there is a question.... '' has an alternative paint been used '' for a very good reason.

   You may be able to find a carbon black primer [ as Rutan specified before the advent of hi UV block topcoats] that can go over the high build to keep the UV out [Graham Singleton will know about that].

   The ''proper paint'' is not twice the price because the manufacturers want twice the profit, it is because it is four times the quality,which costs.... it will still be shiney in 15 years time, truck paint will be flat / chalking in 5, tops.......

   Nev.

 

 

   

 

 

   --

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Spraying questions

Nev, hi thanks for the advice, a few clarifications required



a) doesnt the Polly fibre smooth prime provide the UV block not the top coat?

b) I was not aware that there was a specified paint for the Europa, where can I find what that is?

c) I presume the UV effect is a long term effect and most planes are in a hangar 98% of the time - not that I would want this to be the only protection.

d) Acrylic top coat was recommended by a very reputable UK aircraft sprayer

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: Spraying questions

Graeme,



Everyone has different ideas on the subject. You want to use acrylic urethane, not acrylic enamel; the latter are the cheaper car paints.

In the US at least all paint manufacturers had to change their product lines recently because of new VOC legislation. For example the popular PPG primer K36 does no longer exist ( I found an equivalent at half the price).

Regarding UV protection, no airplane has fallen out of the sky yet because of UV radiation. All new paints are very good in that area, and you are using a dark primer for protecting the structure. And you are correct about the 98%. 

Also, choose a really white paint. Most of them are tinted, and that only becomes obvious when you hold it against a pure white sample.

Many builders have done their own painting, although, it would help to have a professional do the final top coat (which could also be a clear)  on the wing tops and fuselage. One good example is Erich Trombley's mono. It has a showroom finish and he never handled a spraygun before in his life.  

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Spraying questions

 From: graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk

 Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 00:30:13 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk>

 

 Nev, hi thanks for the advice, a few clarifications required

 

 a) doesnt the Polly fibre smooth prime provide the UV block not the top coat?

 b) I was not aware that there was a specified paint for the Europa, where can I find what that is?

 c) I presume the UV effect is a long term effect and most planes are in a hangar 98% of the time - not that I would want this to be the only protection.

 d) Acrylic top coat was recommended by a very reputable UK aircraft sprayer

 

 --------

 Graeme Bird

 G-UMPY

 Mono Classic/XS FWFD 912ULS/Warp drive FP

 Build nearing completion

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=338272#338272

 

 

 

 

 <======================

&gt================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


 		 	   		    [quote][b]

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 649

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Spraying questions

Hi Graeme,



There was an excellent series on painting in the EAA Sport Aviation magazine in about 2003.  It was by Ron Alexander.  You can get it on line.  I think EAA has published it as a booklet now too.



We painted our Europa ourselves and it turned out nicely.  Do not paint in squares.  Spray each part the full length or the full width.



Practice spraying on a glass surface to get your technique.  We painted the glass from our storm door many times.  Once dry, its easy to strip with a razor blade.



We used Poly Fiber system Aerothane for the top coat.  They have an excellent book on their products and how to use them.  Their telephone support in the US is good too.



We color sanded after spraying and that made a big difference.



Jim & Heather  

N241BW

A185

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Spraying questions

Thanks for all the advice. David Steade has been very useful, apparently the recommended paint is a 2K polyurethane Aerodur from Paxa in the UK (or Europa) C21/100UVR and primer 37045 (he used 8lts of top and 10 ltrs primer plus hardener S66/22R (13) and thinner C25/90S (15).

However I spoke to my LAA inspector and also LAA engineering (andy draper) and it is OK to use other schemes, it needs to be written up in the build info and  should show that some form of protection to UV has been taken into consideration.

The UV smooth prime does protect the substrate.

As regards painting, I made lots of enquires in the UK a while back and there are not loads of local paint shops painting glass fibre planes, most of them spray spam cans. Some seem to have been caught with lots of time consuming finishing and they would also have the paints they feel comfortable with. Working with a paintshop would be great if I was retired.  

All in all, if I can make a reasonable job that I am happy with, do it at home at my own pace, learn a new skill as I go and be in a position to repair it when I put it through a hedge then I shall be happy.

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum